...but we can't comment on the announcement you have stickied so it's not really an ongoing conversation, is it?
And we still never got anything clear on what the point of the PM to the AE would be? What would it say/solve?
The community voted to send a PM to the AE. Roughly, the PM would say that AE use is acceptable for farcical or privacy concern reasons, but cannot be used maliciously or to catfish fellow members.
Perhaps the pm should just include the tcf community guidelines with the pertinent parts highlighted. Then it's not personal. Since nobody knows where to access that info anyways.
Cause I only see maybe changes in the community guidelines not the tou. Using tou to refer to changes in the community guidelines is confusing.
Also it's not clear which specific items were striked or replaced in the community guidelines.
Of course I'm running half blind in one eye this week so I must have missed it.
This is the full TOU and Community Guidelines. The bold text are the new additions.
Community Guidelines and Community Terms of Use
The TOU contains general information about the rules governing Then Comes Family, but our user Community has additional rules and guidelines. Agreement to the Terms of Use also constitutes agreement to comply with the Community Guidelines herein.
Community Guidelines
As mentioned above, Then Comes Family runs on the premise that we are adults who are responsible for our own actions. To that extent, the use of vulgarity IS allowed, and is NOT a reportable violation unless a member is relentlessly attacking another member.
Please be aware that the reporting feature is not a “dislike” button. Please ONLY utilize the reporting feature to report Community Guideline and Community TOU violations. The volunteer moderators and site administrators have to individually review each reported post.
We have instituted the following Guidelines for participation in the Community. Please be aware that violating any Guideline will result in a warning from a moderator. If you accrue 4 in a rolling 12 month period, your membership will be suspended indefinitely. Only official warnings administered through the site Private Message system will count toward the 4 violations in 12 months.
Examples of actions that will NOT result in a warning: - Use of vulgarity
- Telling someone that you feel sorry for their husbands/children/pets
- Sarcasm or snark
- The use of gifs or memes to express one’s thoughts, including thoughts about another member of the community, unless those gifs express thoughts or ideas otherwise prohibited in the sections below
- Recruiting members to leave Then Comes Family. We know this community isn’t right for everyone, and while we will be sad to see you go, we want you to be in a place that meets your needs for your family-building journey. - Creation and use of a farcical AE (alter ego) that is obviously not a person, such as CounterButter, nothairpats, and Hammaconda, for purposes of humor on the boards.
- Creation and use of a temporary AE (alter ego) to discuss a personal concern in a more private manner.
Violations that will result in a warning include but are not limited to:
- Repeated misuse of the Reporting feature. You will receive one PM notice of misuse before receiving your first warning.
- Wishing harm upon another member- including but not limited to telling a member they deserve to miscarry, deserve their infertility, that you hope they die/kill themselves, etc.
- Blocking a moderator from contacting you. If you are found to have blocked a moderator, you will receive a notification to unblock, and will have 24 hours to do so before you receive a warning.
- Relentless documented attacks of a user by another user - Creation and use of multiple user accounts otherwise known as AEs in which each account purports to be a new person. Farcical AEs and temporary AEs used to discuss personal concerns are excluded. A warning will only be given in instances where a user is on the borderline of catfishing. A ban will be issued when a user is caught catfishing per the definition in the section below. Forum moderators may be notified when an issue has occurred with a user and AEs.
We reserve the right to instantly ban a member who has committed egregious violations of the Community Guidelines and Community Terms of use. Violations that may result in instant banning may include but are not limited to:
- Trolling- When a poster is revealed as an obvious and malicious troll on the boards, moderators will document the behaviors and postings with screenshots, C&Ps, and/or other documentation and subsequently delete the offensive threads and ban the user. Moderators will then share the documentation with an administrator, and the admin will confirm the malicious troll and IP ban the user. The administrators will label the profile as "banned" as well so that posters on the board can see what happened and follow up with moderators or administrators if need be.
Again, this policy only applies to obviously malicious trolls looking to cause emotional harm or threaten member. This policy does not apply to when someone is "being mean" or "acts like a bitch" or even "is a fucking bitch" and will hopefully be used sparingly.
Creating an AE to "concern" troll a user on the board falls under the category of malicious trolling and will result in a ban for the creator of the AE.
- “Catfishing”- deliberately pretending to be someone they're not, used to create false identities, particularly to pursue deceptive online relationships.
- Creating an account with the sole intent to provoke other members
- Posting pornographic or other sexually explicit materials
- Spamming the boards
- Dodging a ban by creating a new username. This will result in an IP ban
- Any violation of the Community Terms of Use
Community Terms of Use
By participating in these forums, in addition to agreeing to the Proboards Terms of Service, you agree that you will not:
- Use language that is discriminatory on the basis of race, age, sex, gender identity, national origin disability, religion, or otherwise harmful to a protected class of individuals
- Submit any content (posts) that infringe any third party intellectual property right
- Post defamatory statements against another entity, person, or user, regardless of their presence or lack thereof in the Community.
- Divulge another person's or entity's confidential or private information (for example, sharing another user’s name, address, email, phone, or other identifying information)
- Make a post that can be construed as a credible threat to personal well-being - either your own or another member
- encourage criminal conduct
- Submit or post content that contains any virus, malware, spyware or other harmful content or code
Post by veganontuesdays on Nov 30, 2016 12:09:55 GMT -5
Jesus. This is actually getting really fucking ridiculous at this point. It's reading LOUD and clear that what the "hope" is here, is that this will all die down, this thread as well as the TWW thread will be forgotten, we will all resume our normal shenanigans and then PRIDE can still be held intact. It's incredibly insulting.
The community voted to send a PM to the AE. Roughly, the PM would say that AE use is acceptable for farcical or privacy concern reasons, but cannot be used maliciously or to catfish fellow members.
Are you able to see poll results prior to locking a poll TCF News?
Yes. Which is why, when the voting was heavily in favor of PMing an AE, it was decided to move forward with a plan that would work best for the community.
Jesus. This is actually getting really fucking ridiculous at this point. It's reading LOUD and clear that what the "hope" is here, is that this will all die down, this thread as well as the TWW thread will be forgotten, we will all resume our normal shenanigans and then PRIDE can still be held intact. It's incredibly insulting.
What sort of resolution would best work for the community? There are new additions to the TOU and Community Guidelines to ensure this situation will be dealt with properly in the future. We cannot undo what was done, regrettable as it was. So how are we to move on from here?
Let's just keep this conversation quiet over here on this unused board between 2 or 3 people. And then claim the whole board had decided and are all kumbaya
Regarding use of this generic admin account, there have been several situations in the past where members have expressed frustration when admins were using their personal accounts to post admin business. The use of this account is one solution to that problem, but we are open to others.
Post by frankenboom on Nov 30, 2016 12:22:39 GMT -5
The wording is still off, and still begs the question - if user A goes out in flames, comes back but tingles some spidey senses, Admins alerted by C, who doesn't want them here, Admins send B a PM "warning," then what is the possible course of action for B?
Are the options 1. stop posting here or 2. admit who you used to be?
Because if B continues to post and someone else says to Admins hey I think B used to be A, then the Admins have to send B another PM, yes? Resulting in their second warning? And so on and so forth?
"Violations that will result in a warning include but are not limited to: ... - Creation and use of multiple user accounts otherwise known as AEs in which each account purports to be a new person. Farcical AEs and temporary AEs used to discuss personal concerns are excluded. A warning will only be given in instances where a user is on the borderline of catfishing. A ban will be issued when a user is caught catfishing per the definition in the section below. Forum moderators may be notified when an issue has occurred with a user and AEs. ... - “Catfishing”- deliberately pretending to be someone they're not, used to create false identities, particularly to pursue deceptive online relationships."
..."particularly to pursue deceptive online relationships" is vague. The word particularly doesn't specifically qualify pursuing of "deceptive online relationships" as the only definition of catfishing.
I know you guys are saying look we aren't going after those people anymore, they're safe. But the wording of your community guidelines leave this, too much, up to interpretation. I personally wouldn't feel "safe" as a user who tries to come back for a second chance. We have proven time and again that we're pretty damn good at outing them or at least suspecting them (even without Admin assistance) - and you're saying that if you're alerted to them you're going to send them an "I see you" PM but still have no clue what action that user should take from this PM in order to either remain the community without outing themselves or I guess to be forced to leave the community.
I just want to say I am disappointed in how a lot of things were handled in this thread. Including, but not limited to, this thread being unpinned when the conversation seemed to go a new way.
The sentence says this is the full tou and community guidelines
And then posts the community guidelines.
The two are related but not the same thing but are being used interchangeably lol.
So cat fishing definition has not been changed Cat fishing definition would not have applied in strict interpretation to the tww thread Since they were not trying to peruse deceptive online relationships. And were not doing anything malicious either.
Which means basically what happened in tww thread could happen again And what the heck is borderline cat fishing?
Regarding use of this generic admin account, there have been several situations in the past where members have expressed frustration when admins were using their personal accounts to post admin business. The use of this account is one solution to that problem, but we are open to others.
Maybe TCF1 TCF2 TCF3? So we know who's speaking? The we stuff is weirding me out.
It was already said, at least by me, that each admin needs to have their own separate admin Id.
Cause otherwise one admin goes on a banning or deleting spree when they are butt hurt over something. and unless you have a log that records which IP address is using the one admin Id each moment that it's used you don't know which admin did it. They deny it and then you have an admin fight. I've been in the middle of that and learned that lesson the hard way. Even when the other admin was a real life friend.
The wording is still off, and still begs the question - if user A goes out in flames, comes back but tingles some spidey senses, Admins alerted by C, who doesn't want them here, Admins send B a PM "warning," then what is the possible course of action for B?
Are the options 1. stop posting here or 2. admit who you used to be?
Because if B continues to post and someone else says to Admins hey I think B used to be A, then the Admins have to send B another PM, yes? Resulting in their second warning? And so on and so forth?
"Violations that will result in a warning include but are not limited to: ... - Creation and use of multiple user accounts otherwise known as AEs in which each account purports to be a new person. Farcical AEs and temporary AEs used to discuss personal concerns are excluded. A warning will only be given in instances where a user is on the borderline of catfishing. A ban will be issued when a user is caught catfishing per the definition in the section below. Forum moderators may be notified when an issue has occurred with a user and AEs. ... - “Catfishing”- deliberately pretending to be someone they're not, used to create false identities, particularly to pursue deceptive online relationships."
..."particularly to pursue deceptive online relationships" is vague. The word particularly doesn't specifically qualify pursuing of "deceptive online relationships" as the only definition of catfishing.
I know you guys are saying look we aren't going after those people anymore, they're safe. But the wording of your community guidelines leave this, too much, up to interpretation. I personally wouldn't feel "safe" as a user who tries to come back for a second chance. We have proven time and again that we're pretty damn good at outing them or at least suspecting them (even without Admin assistance) - and you're saying that if you're alerted to them you're going to send them an "I see you" PM but still have no clue what action that user should take from this PM in order to either remain the community without outing themselves or I guess to be forced to leave the community.
That's a great point, and we are working on a more concrete definition of catfishing that would clarify that the behavior must be malicious in nature to be considered catfishing. If the community wants to help come up with a better definition, that would be appreciated. Gray area is difficult to avoid, and we're doing the best we can to be clear.
No AE will be forced to out themselves, nor will they be encouraged to deactivate. We understand that this community has members who are good at figuring out who others are. This we have no control over, but we hope members can respect the online privacy of others and simply block members with whom they do not want to interact.
Regarding use of this generic admin account, there have been several situations in the past where members have expressed frustration when admins were using their personal accounts to post admin business. The use of this account is one solution to that problem, but we are open to others.
I think people mostly have an issue with the apology coming from the generic account. Because I'm thinking it's likely still Bibs doing the talking and she has nothing to apologize for.
Sending the pm is still freaky big brother watching. Scare tactic to new/old user that maybe they should get out of dodge.
FYI my sons girlfriend is going to school to be a midwife. I was going to show her this site. She wanted to make a user ID last night on my computer since doing it on her phone would be hard.
I told her not to cause then the IP address for that new account would be the same as for my account. And I wouldn't want her to get a pm warning about cat fishing. Lol
That's a great point, and we are working on a more concrete definition of catfishing that would clarify that the behavior must be malicious in nature to be considered catfishing. If the community wants to help come up with a better definition, that would be appreciated. Gray area is difficult to avoid, and we're doing the best we can to be clear.
No AE will be forced to out themselves, nor will they be encouraged to deactivate. We understand that this community has members who are good at figuring out who others are. This we have no control over, but we hope members can respect the online privacy of others and simply block members with whom they do not want to interact.
So does 4 PMs from 4 users on the same user warrant 4 PM/warnings? because that user will find themselves banned within a few weeks lost AF as to why?
One PM. Why would a user find themselves banned, provided they have not engaged in malicious behavior?
Jesus. This is actually getting really fucking ridiculous at this point. It's reading LOUD and clear that what the "hope" is here, is that this will all die down, this thread as well as the TWW thread will be forgotten, we will all resume our normal shenanigans and then PRIDE can still be held intact. It's incredibly insulting.
What sort of resolution would best work for the community? There are new additions to the TOU and Community Guidelines to ensure this situation will be dealt with properly in the future. We cannot undo what was done, regrettable as it was. So how are we to move on from here?
How many times do we need to say it? WE WANT A REAL APOLOGY FROM NariaDreaming.
So does 4 PMs from 4 users on the same user warrant 4 PM/warnings? because that user will find themselves banned within a few weeks lost AF as to why?
One PM. Why would a user find themselves banned, provided they have not engaged in malicious behavior?
I think she means because the definition of catfishing is bad/incomplete and also wtf is "borderline catfishing" and both of those things can result in a warning and 4 warnings = banned.
Since urban dictionary defines cat fishing as pretending for romantic purposes the definition here needs to be very clear or use a totally different word.
Cause pretending to be someone you are not is at the heart of the matter and may or may not be ok on this board depending on who you talk to
If it's going to come down to malicious behavior being thre actual problem That needs to be defined and all the fish thrown out of the discussion.
Jesus. This is actually getting really fucking ridiculous at this point. It's reading LOUD and clear that what the "hope" is here, is that this will all die down, this thread as well as the TWW thread will be forgotten, we will all resume our normal shenanigans and then PRIDE can still be held intact. It's incredibly insulting.
What sort of resolution would best work for the community? There are new additions to the TOU and Community Guidelines to ensure this situation will be dealt with properly in the future. We cannot undo what was done, regrettable as it was. So how are we to move on from here?
How about the person who made a fucking mistake apologize as MANY people have asked, instead of hiding behind a faceless account? That would be a start.
I think the original poll was funny enough wording that I'm not really sure what it answers. It seems to have only brought up more questions. Like is coming back to this board with a new user name ever ok? Do you have to admit who you used to be? Are there reasons why it's ok to pretend to be someone new like safety, privacy or just need for a do over cause you stuck your foot in your mouth on the Internet? Is it ever ok to have two user ID? What if both are regular harmless Id? Even though community said they wanted a pm sent What should it say? what do they want to come from a pm? What's the next step after a pm is sent, monitor, warning etc When does this step up to a ban situation Cause I've seen bans come pretty swift without warnings etc
Post by frankenboom on Nov 30, 2016 13:04:51 GMT -5
Ok, I'm going to make a suggestion.
In my opinion, this new change (and the guidelines on AEs/Trolls/Catfishing as a whole) have become far too cumbersome.
What it boils down to is this: If the intent of a post or aggregate of posts cannot be deemed as malicious, then the user should not be banned.
Now - as for the "deeming of malicious intent," I think that's something that needs to be discussed. My PERSONAL suggestion on this would be two-fold. Gather a panel of posters from various boards - it would be a good idea to get posters who are well known and others who are regular posters but maybe have quieter voices. Get a couple who regularly disagree with each other, etc. That panel serves as a sort of group of moderators who would be convened whenever a post or a poster's aggregate posts is/are reported as malicious by a member to an admin. The panel reviews the post/posts and provides a recommendation to the Admins. The Admins review the recommendation and come up with a decision as to how to move forward with the poster. Examples of courses of action could be warnings (i.e., stop the behavior or you will be banned after one more occurrence), temporary posting freezes, or banning.
In my opinion, this would allow for members of the TCF community to do a sort of "self policing" before anything gets to Admins. Make it clear to members that reporting something as malicious is serious and X amount of reports that are unfounded (via the Panel and the Admins review) might result in some sort of "punishment" so that you don't have users repeatedly reporting someone they just don't like but who isn't actually being malicious.
So that is me trying to suggest something rather than just trying to tear everything down.
Jesus. This is actually getting really fucking ridiculous at this point. It's reading LOUD and clear that what the "hope" is here, is that this will all die down, this thread as well as the TWW thread will be forgotten, we will all resume our normal shenanigans and then PRIDE can still be held intact. It's incredibly insulting.
What sort of resolution would best work for the community? There are new additions to the TOU and Community Guidelines to ensure this situation will be dealt with properly in the future. We cannot undo what was done, regrettable as it was. So how are we to move on from here?
If you are honestly wondering, I think several users wanted from NariaDreaming either a) an apology, or at least b) a statement that she felt she did nothing wrong. I mean, from her personally, not the TCF News handle. I am not as personally invested, but I think that is where a lot of people's frustrations are currently stemming from.
Why would this be opposed? As we have stated, unless there is malicious intent, the amount of fucks given hovers somewhere around zero.
Zero fucks but the tww AE was put on blast for nothing.
We cannot change what happened in TWW. We can keep giving the reason, which is that this community has repeatedly called for transparency, but there is nothing we can do to fix a past situation. Knowing that, where do we go from here?
Zero fucks but the tww AE was put on blast for nothing.
We cannot change what happened in TWW. We can keep giving the reason, which is that this community has repeatedly called for transparency, but there is nothing we can do to fix a past situation. Knowing that, where do we go from here?
It has been stated several times that people would like NariaDreaming to address this. Not Theo, not biblio, not TCF news. The fact that this request keeps getting ignored is beyond frustrating.
I have no dog in this fight but the fact that she keeps ignoring several tags and requests is off putting. We all understand we can't change the past but she can at least address it as has been requested several times by several people.
Post by icaughtfire on Nov 30, 2016 13:34:59 GMT -5
It has been requested MULTIPLE times that NariaDreaming just put on her fucking big girl panties and offer a sincere apology, not a #sorrynotsorry. You've ignored multiple tags, and you're basically refusing to acknowledge this request. Instead you send in Bibs & Theo to handle everything on your behalf.
GURL. You are the "business owner." This is YOUR project, YOUR baby, YOUR dream. If you can't even own your mistakes, and not run away during the difficult times, how the hell do you expect to succeed? You need your client's (that'd be us..) trust & respect. The way you are handling this situation is childish, not something I would trust or respect.
Last Edit: Nov 30, 2016 13:35:45 GMT -5 by icaughtfire
Number One: Born 06.16.2009 BFP: 01.17.2014 / MC 02.05.2014 BFP: 03.08.2014 / MMC: 05.07.2014 Dx: Partial Molar/GTD. Benched until 01.2015 Number Two: Born 07.22.2016
Post by lupineaura on Nov 30, 2016 13:36:44 GMT -5
I just want to say I really appreciate all the hard work the admins do. I think they all generally are trying their best to do the right thing, and all work very hard for minimal reward.
I also appreciate the high standards to which the members hold the admins (and each other). I like how there is open dialouge (even if that can get tense) and I want to acknowledge those who shared their potentially unpopular opinions, all in the effort to keep this a great place.
Overall, it's both "sides" of this discussion that make TCF a place I wanna be.
Yes, Naria was the one to make the callout. As stated by Biblio and Theo, it was not solely Naria's decision. All admins were aware of the decision. All admins supported the decision, as informed by the TOU and community desires for transparency, as well as the unamended TOU which stated that AEs were not permitted if they were pretending to be someone else.
Now that the TOU has been amended, I can say that I am sorry for how things were handled. The TOU didn't allow for certain circumstances and I want very badly to make sure that it is more clear and serves all of us better in the future.
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