SAIF Old Ladies...come say hi!

[bocaburger]

We play in a private FB group. You don't have to be old.

This makes me sad because I don't feel comfortable participating on FB. One of my favorite things about TCF is that my identity is anonymous and therefore I can really be myself. For example I'm not going to talk about my sex life on FB in case someday someone joins who knows me or H IRL. But that's an important aspect of my life and my fertility that I need a safe space to talk about.

ETA: This is not to say that you shouldn't have a FB group. It just makes me sad because if all the "newbies" that I know from 3T stop participating here and just play in the FB group, I will feel even less at home here.

[ginnyjones82]

Not everyone gets love and support on Facebook

[sumbeach]

Jan 23, 2017 21:52:31 GMT -5 bocaburger said:

We play in a private FB group. You don't have to be old.

This makes me sad because I don't feel comfortable participating on FB. One of my favorite things about TCF is that my identity is anonymous and therefore I can really be myself. For example I'm not going to talk about my sex life on FB in case someday someone joins who knows me or H IRL. But that's an important aspect of my life and my fertility that I need a safe space to talk about.

What kinda freaky stuff you guys doing? Tell!

[kaf7]

I am one for no divide and welcome all comers to SAIF by whatever route they get here. I can almost certainly say that mrsamyd, did not mean to stir the pot with her title and likely didn't see the lurkers and leavers thread TJ started. I happened to join SAIF on TD but I really like the ladies i journeyed with in cycling for a sibling and that pregnancy and my time BF right now. I don't FB so I really hope people stick around. I can understand feeling slighted by being defined as old vs new. It isn't like we chose when we'd meet a partner, try for a baby, and then have control over how many cycles it took to conceive and deliver said child.

Is there any way to collectively try for a do-over? Perhaps end this thread and ask for updates on friends you have lost touch with either through the lurkers thread or the really fun GTKY happening right now?

[mnj05]

I am much more active on DS2's BMB than here, and I've tried to stay up here. For me personally, so many new people came in that it was hard for me to keep track. I love that so many get to become part of this board, but when I get overwhelmed with that many new people (IRL too), I tend to distance myself.

As for me, DS1 will be four in March and I'm planning his party. He requested spider man! He's learning so much at daycare these days and I can't believe it's almost time for him to go to "big big school" as he calls it. We also signed him up for his first ever tee-ball league. I'm so excited about this!

DS2 is 18 months and absolutely insane. He's the one that keeps me on my toes. He doesn't have many words yet, but he's signing more and more, trying to put words together, and just super happy most of the time. He is huge, almost the size of his brother, and eats like there's no tomorrow.

DH and I have an appointment on February 1st with our RE to discuss a FET in late summer. Then we'll move the conversation to donating any embryos we might have left. It's crazy that this whole IF journey is almost over for us. I can't believe we started 5+ years ago.

[shananagins]

Jan 23, 2017 21:55:33 GMT -5 sumbeach said:

Jan 23, 2017 21:52:31 GMT -5 bocaburger said:

This makes me sad because I don't feel comfortable participating on FB. One of my favorite things about TCF is that my identity is anonymous and therefore I can really be myself. For example I'm not going to talk about my sex life on FB in case someday someone joins who knows me or H IRL. But that's an important aspect of my life and my fertility that I need a safe space to talk about.

What kinda freaky stuff you guys doing? Tell!

Jesus, sumbeach, I just snorted water out of my nose 

[bocaburger]

Jan 23, 2017 21:55:33 GMT -5 sumbeach said:

Jan 23, 2017 21:52:31 GMT -5 bocaburger said:

This makes me sad because I don't feel comfortable participating on FB. One of my favorite things about TCF is that my identity is anonymous and therefore I can really be myself. For example I'm not going to talk about my sex life on FB in case someday someone joins who knows me or H IRL. But that's an important aspect of my life and my fertility that I need a safe space to talk about.

What kinda freaky stuff you guys doing? Tell!

BAHAHAHA. I mostly post about all the freaky stuff we're NOT doing. Like how we've only managed to have sex twice since I was 32 weeks pregnant.

[murrt]

Jan 23, 2017 22:05:14 GMT -5 bocaburger said:

Jan 23, 2017 21:55:33 GMT -5 sumbeach said:

What kinda freaky stuff you guys doing? Tell!

BAHAHAHA. I mostly post about all the freaky stuff we're NOT doing. Like how we've only managed to have sex twice since I was 32 weeks pregnant.

Girl....I feel you. Neither DH or I was into sex after second tri. Like nada. Then it took forever for me to feel ok about trying it after the c-section. Plus...sharing a room with a newborn for months does not exactly make sexy time easy!

[ruthie]

Woah. I feel like I'm to blame for some of this since I keep referring to myself as an old lady. But, here's the thing.

There was talk of starting a private FB group for SAIF forever ago. There was a lot of talk in that thread about some of the posters with 2015 babies not feeling comfortable sharing personal info with those who had not been in the trenches with them. We were referred to as "oldies." I (virtually) laughed at that and then started referring to myself as an oldie and the rest of us from the 2012 baby boom in jest. To be perfectly honest, I thought the comment was especially directed at me since I was one of the more active posters with a 2015 and 2012 baby. I thought the trenches included a PAIF experience, but I took the tone of that post to mean I was mistaken. FB was never a part of that 2012/13 generation of posters, so TCF is all we have.

But, seriously. It wasn't done to be mean. It wasn't done to be divisive. We were the ones told that we weren't welcome because we didn't go through treatment with so many of the 2015 moms. But, trust me. We are LOW drama. We've always been low drama. We've always celebrated new members and been thrilled with all the fun the 2015/16 moms have brought to the board. GTKYs, games...it's great. And, yay for babies. It's fun to hear about that stuff. I also have a 2015 baby and have enjoyed connecting with some moms that are going through the same stage as I'm experiencing with my daughter.

That being said, I'm pretty confused about all this hubbub. Those of us with older children have been told "this is our table now" (I believe that's the quote, but I'd have to search for sure). We've been advised we need to deal with the culture change and we've frequently been reminded that we aren't in the club. We tried to start a check in for older kids (with permission). And, to be fair, I said I'd run it and I completely dropped the ball. So, that's pretty uncool on my part- I'm sorry about that. Maybe this post wouldn't be upsetting if I had been better about it.

But anyway, I don't think it's fair to come after this post. Oldie is a term that was given to us. Many of the members on this post won't even visit because they so rarely check TCF. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it hard to scroll through a general check in post? I don't look through the infant posts anymore, so I would think a bunch of people would just want to avoid dealing with so many pages of a post with posters they haven't ever heard of or info that isn't relevant to their child at this time.

There's not a lock on the post and, of course, anyone would be welcome to drop in. i feel fairly confident I speak for most with 2012/2013 babies when I say, we'd LOVE to see anyone in the SAIF community drop in with a hello.

[ruthie]

Well now, wait a minute. In my attempt to bring up the old thread, I found your post on PAIF. Now I'm NOT okay. @ketchup, uncool to bash SAIF on PAIF. I didn't complain to a mod- let me make that clear. While I didn't appreciate your attitude, I never saw a violation or any inappropriate behavior on the board of which you were a mod. And, if I had money to wager, I'd guess it wasn't the "Vets" or "oldies" as you referred to us that complained (most of us don't spend enough time around here to even know the names of admins)- it was most likely those who were with you. They were the ones sending me PMs after all. Hell, ages ago, I got a PM from someone on IF asking me about your behavior on SAIF. Even if I had complained, I actually was on PAIF when you were mod. So, I suppose maybe I could have a say by your legitimacy standards. But, anyway, I feel like I'm probably missing some behind the scenes moderator business, so I can't comment on your actual removal.

Now, I really stand with my whole not welcome on FB thing. You just made it crystal clear in that post. And, how dare you go on PAIF and spout the evils of this board to women who look up to you based on seniority. That's tacky beyond measure. You have a beef with us- keep it with us. I would have thought you were better than to complain cross boards. That's one of the most hateful things you can do around here. Be mad. Complain on your FB group. That's your business. We won't see it- you've made sure of that.

But, how dare you discourage your IF sisters from seeking the support they may need while TFAS. What about the feeling of sitting in a playgroup with women all laughing about how they just couldn't handle another baby, but DH looked at them again and BAM pregnant. What it's like to drop your child off at preschool, only to watch your friend head off to TRU for a big sister gift while you head off to the RE. How about the woman (and, this one is me) who goes through 12 treatment cycles and watches woman after woman come through with success, only to be told you are a tricky case after years with your RE? Have words like- poor prognosis, donor eggs, last chance... thrown at you? To be so desperate for answers and some hope, you seek it where ever you find it? Now, this was TB days, but one SAIFer posted on my desperate, sobbing plea for some hope with a story about her little morula that stuck and made me believe mine would too. I forever be grateful to her.

That's what this community can offer women. That's what it has done for so many of us. To tell PAIF you are the only one who stands up for them and that we are so unwelcoming is very uncool- especially considering how you've bragged about being a champion for so many of those girls. There are extraordinary women in this board. And, like you constantly remind us you'll stick up for your girls (which, kind of makes me mad since we were actually pregnant together- seems like I should be included in your whatever that Taylor swift term is...squad, right?), I have a hard time believing you wouldn't find a member with an older child who wouldn't stand up for a member in an IF crisis when she needed it.

I'll admit, stripping of the mod title does seem extreme for the thread you mentioned on PAIF and I'm inclined to believe there's a history there I'm not aware of, but it's not okay to blame all of your problems on us. And, you are the one who used the term "oldie" to describe us in the first place anyway, so please don't pretend like you didn't have any sort of a hand in the rift. I fessed up to continuing to use it in a (what I thought was goofy) way that maybe others didn't like (although, had I known it was hurtful, I would have stopped), but I'm not the only one who just kept digging the hole.

[mrswillie]

Everything that ruthie said. Although I would like to add that @ketchup you have no idea if anybody/who complained to any mods or admins and you go and say that a certain "group" of women did so. The thread you specifically mentioned has over 2K views, which is unusual for this board, so clearly it garnered some attention as I can imagine the posts from over the last year you referred to may have as well. If there were any "complaints", I guarantee you it's not only the "oldies" who took issue with some responses in threads over the last year and not just by you.

I take exception to the fact that you also make it sound as though no women in that "group" ever posted on PAIF since the 2015 baby boom. I, myself, have and I know a few others with older children have. I just left that board at the beginning of December after the birth of DS. I can't say I posted every day given work, pregnancy and my other two LO's, but I didn't get on any of the boards I post on regularly. Being mod, you are also aware that PAIF didn't have a ton of activity besides the weekly tri check-ins.

So please do not make it sound as though none of the "oldies" interact with the 2015 baby boom and beyond. I am "friends" with many of the ladies, welcome their posts and provide feedback and certainly am appreciative of any of the responses given to me. I've also called upon some previously to say hey, where ya been!

So I DO NOT appreciate the SAIF bashing over there!

[remylove1011]

Jan 23, 2017 22:05:14 GMT -5 bocaburger said:

Jan 23, 2017 21:55:33 GMT -5 sumbeach said:

What kinda freaky stuff you guys doing? Tell!

BAHAHAHA. I mostly post about all the freaky stuff we're NOT doing. Like how we've only managed to have sex twice since I was 32 weeks pregnant.

I sit at that table with you! We've had sex once since I had DD.

And I'm all confused by all of this thread. Guess I don't play here enough. I'm not in the FB group either. Boo.

[ruthie]

Jan 23, 2017 22:05:14 GMT -5 bocaburger said:

Jan 23, 2017 21:55:33 GMT -5 sumbeach said:

What kinda freaky stuff you guys doing? Tell!

BAHAHAHA. I mostly post about all the freaky stuff we're NOT doing. Like how we've only managed to have sex twice since I was 32 weeks pregnant.

Oh girl, do not fret. You've got me beat. I haven't had sex since JANUARY OF 2015!!!! Our 10th anniversary is in March. I figure I should offer it up then.

[mrswillie]

Jan 24, 2017 7:21:03 GMT -5 @ketchup said:

I'll be back once I get to work and can respond more clearly, but uh .. ruthie and mrswillie -- literally from the words of Naria herself -- the complaints started rolling in "from SAIF refs who say you're being mean/rude to them".

This first came to my attention in March of 2016. Specifically, right after you mrswillie tagged me in a thread and said you had people PMing you asking "who's this Ketchup person and what's her problem?" Sounds really weird that people who posted with me for years didn't know who I even was, huh?

So, take your theory that it was "those who walked among me" and not the sweet old vets of the SAIF board who started whining, because I have proof to the contrary, actually.

And I didn't discourage shit. I gave the facts. Let people do with it what they may. But the two of you need to stop acting like you actually know what's going on here, because clearly you don't.

You gave facts that are wrong. I can't wait to read your "full response." Get the popcorn ready!

ETA: Today's feature film is a comedy!

[kensie5226]

Ok so I have feels. I've been following all of this and mulling it all over. There is some serious righteous indignation happening in this thread and no one is 100% right or wrong so I think everyone needs to stop acting like they're blameless in all of this.

First off I understand where the feelings came from that started the shoulder lesion drama. For those of us who have not been around as long it appears that the OP is drop in who asks many obscure medical questions and contributes very little to the board. According to those who have been around longer the OP has been a source of support to them and is welcome to start as many threads as she wants with these questions. I fall in the middle. I don't know OP, I have never received any support from OP, and I do think that there sure is a lot going on there. However, I choose not engage in those threads because at best OP has some of the worst medical luck in the world and at worst OP needs the attention of the internet. In neither of those situations do I feel that piling on jokes, name calling, or snarking on OP is helpful. She has been a member of the community whether you like her or not. She is NOT some pee-stick sharing person who popped in for four days and shared a BFP. So in that sense I think that the thread was handled poorly and I for one not did not stand up b/c I was busy at work and then wasn't sure what to say. So I take responsibility in the fact that my silence probably contributed to that escalation. I don't think anyone in that post can claim they were just stating facts and were not reacting in an emotional way. There was a ton of WKing all around that post, so I don't think anyone gets to point fingers.

As for the culture of the board. Some personalities will always clash. That's the way it is. But, for those of us who are snarky and sarcastic as shit in real life, I think it's important to understand that sarcasm doesn't always play on paper. I tone my snark way down online b/c it is genuinely difficult for some people to understand sarcasm IRL, let alone online. (No joke, I have one person who I literally have to say "I'm being sarcastic/genuine" for them to understand.) So honestly, I think it's common courtesy to understand that not everyone relates in the same way as you. If someone says hey that post hurt my feelings, it's a sign of maturity to be like, oh dude I was being snarky and I'm sorry. I'll dial it back in this one instance. It's not a sign of weakness. I think in the past few days many people have been doubling down in a way that's "if you don't like me than fuck you" and that really is how many teenage girls justify their bullshit.

I am member of this community and the one on Facebook, I like having different places to share. I have made IRL friends and I hope I can continue to be friends with you all. There are also people I don't like and I'll continue to ignore them and their posts. I hope we can find a more reasonable way to relate to each other b/c the last thing this country needs (sorry, overseas friends) is a bunch of people screaming at each other without finding any sort of common ground. I think it's key to remember the ONLY common ground we truly have is IF. And IF can suck it.

Edited because I'm a bad typist.

[ruthie]

Okay, so I'm not sure who the "refs" of this board are. If someone had asked me to name one, I would have said you. You've always been the first to jump into a thread when you feel there's been an injustice toward the principle of snark. And, I can't say who PMed willie, but I still fail to see what facts you presented. Still sounds like guesses to me.

I'd really like to hear your story, however, as you mentioned you are hurting and I'm sorry to hear that.

[ruthie]

Typo? Because, clearly I'm clairvoyant and should have known that. But, if you want to debate alleged facts, anyone with a 2015 baby would have been a reg by Match 2016.

Here's the thing. You are constantly saying you'd have the back of the girls who went through rough times with you. I'm just trying to do the same. Although, id say I'd have the back of you in another community as well since we went through PAIF together. Would you do the same for me? That being said, there's like five of us that post regularly and have older children. Do you think we'd honestly have that kind of power over an admin? I'll admit, I could be wrong. But, it seems suspicious. And, even if it was the case- to go on another board and bash another community is still uncool.

I'm really trying to see where you are coming from. I imagine this was very hurtful and felt like a massive betrayal. Will you do me the same courtesy and try to understand why it was hurtful for you to go on another board and talk bad about us?

[mrswillie]

Perfectly stated kensie5226! Thank you!

[mrsamyd]

Well this exact thread was well received back in August. I don't have time to read through all the posts. I'm sorry that I hurt feelings. I've had various levels of participation as life permits. I started the Seven Things posts and the torch has passed several times. I currently have two littles and they freak out when I'm on my iPad or phone. Sorry that I'm not around much these days. I'm happy to delete this post if that would serve a positive good.

[bocaburger]

I'm going to jump in, even though it scares me because I tend to be non-confrontational (perhaps to a fault). But the IF community on TCF is VERY important to me, and I need it to be a safe and inclusive space, so I feel it's important to post my opinion.

I found the shoulder lesions thread upsetting, mainly because the tone of many of the posts felt very attacking. It made me afraid that if I ever unintentionally broke board etiquette, or if I tried to defend someone I felt was being mistreated, that I would be attacked, which makes me feel less safe posting in general. I do understand the underlying message that you have to give support in order to get it, which I think is a fair expectation, I just believe there are less hurtful ways to get that message across.

That being said, I think it was handled very poorly by the admin team, which I will return to in a minute. First, I want to address the other issue here, which is the underlying divide between the "oldies" and everyone else on this board, and the fact that new members have not felt welcomed or included. I have also heard privately from "oldies" that they have become less active on SAIF recently because they feel that the board has become less of a safe space, and have attributed that to the tone some of the newer members have used in their posts. So I'm not saying the blame lies 100% with one group of people. But this is the only board I have ever participated on where the older members seem to have created a group identity for themselves based on seniority. mrsamyd , I don't think the blame lies with you personally. I know this thread has been posted before and I doubt you intended to offend anyone. Unfortunately it does perpetuate the feeling of unwelcomeness that many newer members of this board experience.

Now I want to address the way the admins handled this situation, and I think we deserve a response and an apology. NariaDreaming ,bibliothecary ,theophania ,wordsy ,TCF News , the thing that has always set TCF apart is the transparency. I have always found you to handle touchy situations in a respectful, professional, and balanced way, while keeping the rest of us in the loop. Which is why I am so baffled by the way you handled this. While @ketchup may have said things that were hurtful to others in that thread, she did not violate any TOU, and I am not aware of a separate TOU agreement for mods. She was also representing her own views and not wearing her Mod Hat at the time (since we were not even on the board where she is a mod). Furthermore, and I think this is the most important point - she was hardly the only person to say harsh things in that thread, and yet she seems to be the only person who has received any official backlash. This seems like she is being personally singled out. I imagine your response here will be that you received complaints, and that you can't be completely transparent because you need to respect people's confidentiality. While I understand you are in a tough position, I want to point out what you are enabling here: People who don't like Ketchup are being allowed to complain about her without her being given any chance to defend herself, without being given a formal warning or more clear guidelines about how to change her behavior ("tone down the snark" is not actually a legitimate request that can be measured and applied in an unbiased way to all mods across boards). In essence, Ketchup is being bullied. As someone who has been in Ketchup's shoes (at a job, where a coworker who was jealous that I got promoted and she didn't made shit up about me to my boss, and I was never given the opportunity to address it with her because she had asked to remain anonymous), I will not stand for this treatment of her. It's inappropriate and unfair to strip her of her mod duties on one board based on complaints made privately about her behavior on a different board.

Finally, I think the admins missed a really important opportunity here. You could have recognized the underlying issues behind those emotionally charged posts, and started an open dialogue about how to mend the gap and create a more inclusive, safer environment here. Instead, you picked out one individual to attack, did not communicate with anyone (SAIF or PAIF) about your decision, and honestly made the IF community feel even less safe in this space. I am thoroughly disappointed in your handling of this situation.

Edited for clarity

[gsancho]

So…I know I haven’t been active in a while, and therefore my thoughts on the craziness may not matter. But I also think it’s worth stating how the whole thing looks from the POV of a fresh set of eyes, because sweet baby Jesus the lack of self-awareness from some people is mind boggling!!

I mean, if we say we’re not being biased in our responses, we’re fooling ourselves. So first I’ll admit based on what I saw happening when I was last active in Aug/Sept, I lean towards the opinion of treating everyone with respect. I’d like to think we all have better things to do with our time than to go into posts of people we don’t like and be rude. At the same time, I had felt in the middle when the rift started b/c I was on the really early cusp of the 2015 influx and had seen the great qualities both “oldies” and “newbies” had. In the end everyone loses since the point of contention over tone kept many from getting to know each other.

Anyway, back to my point of how this is looking to a fresh set of eyes – and I say this knowing that I’m summarizing the opposite ends of the spectrum. Plenty of people are somewhere in the middle and there’s a complicated history of disagreements at play. But here’s how it all comes across.

ONE SIDE: “This forum was created with the idea we’d have the freedom to be snarky. Butterflies & rainbows are for TD and we are honest here…so I’m going to take that as a license to be a raging bitch to whoever I don’t like. And if I get called out for being a bitch, I’m going to put my foot down and say I can do what I want on the Internet. So there! And if you don’t like it, GTFO!! Oh but I love my fellow IF warriors!! (Even though I really only like you if you always support me. If you don’t, you’re not worthy of an opinion).

OTHER SIDE: “What?! We’ve always been so great on here and welcome everyone. Posts for vets/oldies are totally innocent and the timing of what happened yesterday is in no way weird! (Even though OP was maybe completely oblivious, gotta admit crappy timing and the whole thing just stirs the pot). I just want to pretend we’re all friends who will treat each other differently than other sites or boards do, even though the reality is this will never happen when it comes to an open internet forum – but dang it, I’m not going to let things change. (Really, I can’t stand these new mean girls, so I’m just not going to make much of an effort with new people and hope all of the arguing just goes away. I’ll PM my TCF buddies about how I don’t like the bullies, but then just let a few outspoken ladies be the ones who publicly say anything about the meanness).

As for how the mod situation was handled, not sure if I can state an opinion without being privy to all the facts. If Ketchup was truly blindsided, then I don’t doubt it was hurtful and that’s something to be addressed with the admins. But as far as the back and forth on this board…GOOD LORD there are some stubborn as fuck people on here! We all have better things to do with our time instead of debating on the tone of a board. Just share what you want to share, participate with those you want to participate with, and quit keeping tabs on each other so often.

That’s the end of my rant.

[kensie5226]

FWIW I'm not cool with the firing of ketchup as board mod, but I've decided to address this as a separate issue from our board contention.

[Amelia]

This is a lot to process. Several PPs have presented valid arguments that adequately sum up my feelings as an apparent "newbie" (who has a one year old, but whatever), so I won't bother repeating them. I'm sorry to see that there is such a division, but it is certainly there, and I've noticed it quite a few times myself. I'm about as non-confrontational as you can get, and this entire situation both saddens and angers me.

I guess I'm still sitting over here trying to figure out where the tone of this board ("shoulder lesion" thread excluded) has been made so negative by the newer members that we somehow chased off the "vets" or made them feel otherwise uncomfortable and ruined a "lovely community", to the point that some of them only participate when they are tagged or receive a PM about a post's content. I split my time between here and FB, and I had the impression that, overall, this board was still a very supportive place, to all active participants. I've seen far worse lurking other boards, and 3T/PAIF/SAIF have always felt like a safe home to me.

[ccam]

Not too sure what's going on but heeeyyyy 👋

[jbdamonm]

Jan 30, 2017 12:33:49 GMT -5 ccam said:

Not too sure what's going on but heeeyyyy 👋

This!

Waves HI to leahb12,kaf7,mnj05,ruthie,mrswillie,ccam, and mrsamyd! Miss you ladies from way back in the day - hope everyone is doing well