Sleep experts come in!

[dietpepsi]

How do you put him down for the night? Sleeping already? Awake with pacifier?

My sons issue was sleep associations. He went to bed with the paci but he'd wake up without it during the night and he wouldn't be able to go back to sleep

[valie]

You have my sorries. How long has it been? I thought DS had lost his mind at 13mos, but he was just getting his 1 year molars.

I hope things improve soon.

[ghostmonkey]

Molars was my thought too.

Why are you mixing the formula at half strength?

Does he have a night light? Music/white noise?

[ghostmonkey]

Have you actually read how to correctly CIO?

[dietpepsi]

Feb 19, 2017 21:07:24 GMT -5 ghostmonkey said:

Have you actually read how to correctly CIO?

Yes this. If you haven't, read ferbers book.

[dietpepsi]

I really really recommend Solve your child's sleep problems by ferber

[obscurereference]

Well he can't learn how to put himself to sleep if you're rocking to sleep and then transferring. Barring a medical problem, one year olds do not need to eat overnight. I would read up on CIO and see if that's something you would do and then follow it exactly.

[weeklyplanner]

When did he turn 1?

Sounds like sleep associations to me. You rock him with a paci and then he wakes up and you aren't there, so he cries. He doesn't know how to fall asleep alone.

How did he react to cio? You said it didn't go well, but what happened? DS resisted it, but he has a very strong personality and a serious case of FOMO. We had to do exitinction because "checks" pissed him off. It took quite a few weeks for him to stop crying at bedtime, but most kids respond within a few days (or so I've been told).

[weeklyplanner]

Feb 19, 2017 21:39:47 GMT -5 12345 said:

I will read up on this extinction CIO. I just need to make sure he is not bothering his sisters and waking them up.

I agree that he shouldn't need to eat. We really only offer when he cries/screams/throws himself for 15 or more mins. (Which at 3 inthe morn, seems like an eternity!)

Part of me wants to just do a before bed bottle (and maybe add a pre daycare morning bottle) and not feed at all at night. Maybe offer a sippy if he really doesn't calm down. But again, the screaming...ugh. He is so stubborn.

Ok, coming from one mom of a very stubborn little boy to another...15 min is nothing. They've got some serious will power. DS would cry for 40-45 min at times. It majorly sucked, but we were out of options and persisted. Once it "worked" he started consistently sleeping 11-12 hours at night.

Maybe get some white noise machines for his siblings so they aren't disturbed?

[flippinchica]

www.preciouslittlesleep.com/how-to-cry-it-out-bedtime-edition/
Read this article (all this info is in ferbers book as well.

[pinkie]

Our older son was a nightmare with sleep. We finally got him on track at 3.5. If I were in your shoes (with my experiences) I would plan for 3-4 horrible nights and put him to bed and do full CIO with no checks. It's going to be rough but reading what you wrote I don't know that anything gentle is working and you already consulted help. As hard as this is now, it gets harder as they are older and more vocal. That's why I'd try it now (ruling out illness of course!)

No rocking to sleep, no eating to sleep, make sure he knows how to fall asleep on his own.

Make sure his room is comfortable, night light, noise machine. I think he's learning that if he gets really upset you will come in and give him what he wants (rocking to sleep).

It is so hard!! I was so strict with our second son for sleep because our older son traumatized me with so many years of horrible sleep issues.

[regal]

Well I'm going to be the voice of dissent here, but there are other options. What's your short term goal vs long term goal? We had to focus on the short term goal of everyone sleeping as much as possible. For us, this meant we slept with our kids on a mattress on the floor and slowly made changes as they were needed.

We tried Ferber and it wasn't for us. It turned S1 into a sad, clingy kid and after three nights of no one sleeping and everyone being on edge we chose to change our approach.

[cribs4life]

We have to do extinction. Both my kids go bsc if I or my h go back in.

[vivela]

We tried checks with my DS and it definitely made things worse. He needed extinction. It took almost an hour for three nights or so, but now he sleeps between 10-12 a night.
He will still get mad about bedtime about twice a week. Now our cutoff is 20 minutes, if he goes longer than that something is wrong (usually a diaper).
Sounds like you need a new sleep specialist.

[weeklyplanner]

12345 Since he just turned one, I'd recommend giving cio (with extinction if needed) a consistent try. I know it's hard, but see if that will give you results. My friend always caved after 10-15 min and now has a 3 year old that is a nightmare to put to sleep and is wandering the house at night.

I agree, however, that CIO doesn't always work and a different approach may be needed. But, I would give it your best and extend the length of time he cries, etc. DS never actually napped using cio and the approach only worked at bedtime with him. For naps, I ended up holding him until his was 1.5 and then for a few months he finally slept alone at nap time before dropping naps completely before age 2. So, every kid is different! Good luck!

[ghostmonkey]

Feb 19, 2017 22:28:38 GMT -5 @aditi said:

I mean yes there are other options and CIO doesn't work for every kid, but it sounds like OP hasnt been consistent which is a big issue when ST.

This. There are other options, but she hasn't followed any of them and keeps trying to slap together her own method and bend the rules to what she wants it to be. Hence why I asked about why the formula was diluted. 

Pick a program. Follow it consistently before determining that it needs to be altered. The specialists frustration likely comes from the parents not following the programs that are being suggested.

[Deleted]

I will ask does he eat a lot more than his twin sister does during the day? Cause while they are very similar in their calorie needs, male and female 1 year olds aren't exactly the same. He may be eating in the middle of the night because he's really hungry. Consider adding in an extra snack for him or slightly larger serving than his sister and see how that effects his sleep.

[lupineaura]

Feb 19, 2017 21:51:29 GMT -5 flippinchica said:

www.preciouslittlesleep.com/how-to-cry-it-out-bedtime-edition/
Read this article (all this info is in ferbers book as well.

Someone beat me to the preciouslittlesleep link! The gospel is spreading.

Yes, read the site. Your problem is that if you are rocking etc to sleep/almost sleep, he hasn't learned how to fall asleep independently. Everyone wakes during the night (even adults; we just don't remember it), and when he does, he doesn't know how to fall asleep without you so he screams.

[lifesaverz]

While I'll agree that when doing CIO it's important to follow a system & be consistent, & that it may be worth trying again (using extinction) if you've not been consistent in the past, I'll also say I think it's important to note that CIO does not work for all kids. We tried CIO with my DD when she was younger, first with checks, (which also made it worse), then with extinction, with the longest point being 1.5 hours that she cried. It did not work for her at all. Like your son, she also just got more & more worked up. She eventually got through her rough sleep patch but not from anything we did.

With my younger DS we did CIO & it worked like a charm. Was so easy, in fact. 30 min or less of crying for 2-3 nights. After seeing that I realized how it was supposed to be. Every kid is just different, & while for some it may work, for others it may not, & if you try it & he's crying for up to an hour , hour & a half, he may be one who it's just not for him. Also if he was throwing himself around enough to hurt himself I would not be okay with that either.

I agree there is some sleep association issues here, & likely the real issue is that he needs to learn to be able to put himself to sleep. If you do try CIO again, do it at BEDTIME, not MOTN first. Feed him & all that, but don't rock him, & put him in his bed drowsy but awake. The sleeping books all say that bedtime is where you start, & I'll say that's what worked for my DS also. We never actually had to do any CIO for MOTN wake-ups with DS, because once he figured out how to put himself to sleep at bedtime, he slowly stopped the MOTN wake-ups on his own. Learning to put them self to sleep is an important skill, so I'd work on that first before tackling wake ups.

[pinkie]

Feb 19, 2017 22:11:58 GMT -5 12345 said:

Feb 19, 2017 21:43:59 GMT -5 weeklyplanner said:

When did he turn 1?

Sounds like sleep associations to me. You rock him with a paci and then he wakes up and you aren't there, so he cries. He doesn't know how to fall asleep alone.

How did he react to cio? You said it didn't go well, but what happened? DS resisted it, but he has a very strong personality and a serious case of FOMO. We had to do exitinction because "checks" pissed him off. It took quite a few weeks for him to stop crying at bedtime, but most kids respond within a few days (or so I've been told).

He turned one Feb 4th.

He is really a happy kid during the day. Not a ton of crying, not real needy. Pretty chill. And goes down and stays down pretty well for naps. So this night sleep thing just throws me. Totally different! My mom who has stayed with him overnight can't believe how different he is at night!

When we tried some CIO (we only tried for 3 nights!) he would cry to the point of no return. Basically cry so hard he could barely breath. But the twins also shared a room at that time, so CIO was hard. He was right around 10 months.

I guess at this point, I think everyone is saying try CIO again! I was hoping there'd be another option, but we really need to kick this bad habit. And mom and dad need sleep. I'm pretty sure he does know that if he cries hard and loud enough, we will "rescue" and feed him. I think he cries more when he sees us and we don't feed him! That's what the extinction CIO method might be the best.

We basically did this method with his twin sister, but she didn't cry as loud, and wasn't as stubborn and would put herself back to sleep within 10 to 15. She now (pretty recently) STTN or wakes up once.

My only other idea is to hire a new sleep consultant.  Research them ahead of time and make sure you guys can be on the same page.  These are expensive and you have already used one so I'm not sure if you want to do this.  If you were saying he was up once or twice just to eat, I'd say that I would hang in there to see if he drops the feelings.

I know CIO is not right for every kid but hearing your story I don't know how well any other gentle methods will work right now with a 1 year old (who you can't reason with) since he's already used to screaming until you rock him and hasn't learned how to put himself to sleep.  However my opinion is probably totally scewed because we had a very extreme case.  We were in such sleep hell for 3.5 years.

i also like the Weinberg book referenced above.  Healthy sleep happy baby (I always mess up the title).

[flippinchica]

You don't have to do CIO but if to want to stop the night wakings you have to remove the sleep associations and he has to learn to go to sleep (at bedtime as pp said) on his own in his own bed. The quickest way to get there is cio. Gradual methods will still likely involve some tears as well. Plus you have already tried a gradual method with the sleep consultant and reverted back to rocking to sleep. Whichever plan you choose the most important part is to be consistent especially with a stubborn babe.

[mb3]

Feb 19, 2017 21:39:47 GMT -5 12345 said:

I will read up on this extinction CIO. I just need to make sure he is not bothering his sisters and waking them up.

I agree that he shouldn't need to eat. We really only offer when he cries/screams/throws himself for 15 or more mins. (Which at 3 inthe morn, seems like an eternity!)

Part of me wants to just do a before bed bottle (and maybe add a pre daycare morning bottle) and not feed at all at night. Maybe offer a sippy if he really doesn't calm down. But again, the screaming...ugh. He is so stubborn.

This might sound harsh, but the longer you let this current pattern continue the harder it will be to break out of it. For both you and your son. Right now you are reinforcing that if he just keeps crying you'll eventually come rock him to sleep. I know it's hard to do with twins- mine still share a room at almost 3- but you might have to bite the bullet and accept that while in the short term they might get woken up by his screaming, in the long run they will all learn to sleep through more.

[ghostmonkey]

Feb 20, 2017 2:01:48 GMT -5 12345 said:

We did diluted formula starting around 11 months. He was eating more than enough during the day between bottles and food. (And he's already a big boy). His bedtime bottle is not diluted. We played tried it both ways for a few nights, and going back to full strength did not make a difference with the wake ups. So we stuck with half strength at night knowing he didn't need the calories. He does get more food at dinner time. We've been doing typical dinner, then since he isn't taking his milk sippy as well, I give him yogurt or a baby food pouch or something more than his twin.

You realize this screws with his electrolytes, right?

Following the directions. Unless your doctor tells you otherwise, stop making shit up out of nowhere.

[mb3]

Feb 20, 2017 11:59:30 GMT -5 @sterling said:

Feb 20, 2017 9:10:06 GMT -5 12345 said:

Ok! I think this is what I needed to hear. Basically we need to take care of this now before we end up with a screaming 3 year old! (All my kids of been horrible sleepers...likely due to me being pretty relaxed about it, but the girls seemed to figure it out around one. This little guy is not getting it!). Given the screaming, I was worried something was actually wrong with him.

Unfortunately, DH and I are gone for 3 nights this weekend and my mom will be watching my kids. So starting CIO now is not the best option as I know grandma won't be able to deal with the crying. I think for the rest of the week, we are going to focus on not feeding at night. Then start CIO next week when we get home.

Please cross your fingers this works and that DH and I can handle CIO! I'll update!

When are you going out of town? If you start tonight I bet he's really good by Thursday. Then you can give grandma clear instructions on what to do and not force her to be up all night with him.

Agreed. Would not force anyone else to be up hourly with my kid(s).

[ghostmonkey]

Feb 20, 2017 12:21:05 GMT -5 12345 said:

Feb 20, 2017 11:39:58 GMT -5 ghostmonkey said:

You realize this screws with his electrolytes, right?

Following the directions. Unless your doctor tells you otherwise, stop making shit up out of nowhere.

Our pedi did give us the ok to do this at his 9 month check up. He said lots of people use this as a way to stop MOTN feeds. Basically dilute it slowly over time so it's basically water. Obviously I would not do it if he were younger or needed the calories. Since at this age, he can have water alone, there is really no harm is doing this.

At 9-12 months he should not have been getting more than 2-4 oz of water total per day. That includes watering down formula. And I have never, ever heard of that for eliminating feeding (because most people know better than to water down formula, and especially pedis should know better than to suggest that when that is the child's primary food source).

You keep talking about meals- food is practice prior to a year. It should not have been substantial enough to cut formula out. He should have been getting all his calories from formula and solids should have been just add ons. Did you notice this becoming worse when you started watering down his primary food source?

[Deleted]

If he's not drinking milk and he's not getting formula are you sure he's not hungry? There is a one year growth spurt for many kids which may contribute to night wakings for a week or so. Extra solids need to be calorie dense which most pouch foods are not being only veg or fruit. More protein and fats needed to keep him full they the night

Teething? Ear infection? Those two things kids often want the bottle because it feels good on gums or moving jaw back and forth relieves ear pain a bit. Refusing supply during the day is a sign of supply hurts. Have you tried s soft spout soppy cup or a soft straw cup

Also moving him to his own room did not help wake ups. Do you think it has made them worse? Mine always slept better knowing there was someone else in the room. Do my two boys slept better sharing a room than in separate rooms until they were teens. For some twins being close to their twin helps them feel more comfortable.

I ask these things cause there is a lot of background noise issues going on here that may not be the one problem but may all add up to make the problem. It's like a puzzle.

Bedtime routine can do a world of good. Snack bath brush teeth pjs book song prayers etc. all done very similarly every night to prep for sleep

As well as timing of sleep. He may need to go down at a different time earlier or later. If you miss his sleepy time it will be harder to get him down without bottle and rocking and then he will more likely need that again in the middle of the night.

[pinkie]

Regarding the eating during the night, our younger son did wake once a night and drank an 8 oz bottle of either formula or milk (once we transitioned him) up until about 14 months. Then we started offering just 4 oz and by 15 months he just stopped needing/wanting it and he's been sleeping all the way through ever since. He has been on a 7-7 ish sleep pattern. With him I always felt confident he was waking from hunger - he was up for as long as it took to drink and then right back.

If I were in your place I would plan for one full feeding overnight (not diluted) or do a dream feed before you go to bed (I was always too afraid to wake him - I'm not joking about how my older son traumatized me - but I know it worked great for friends) and hope it sustains him for the overnight period.

I'm sure this is very challenging, especially having twins so I hope you can get something to work!

[Deleted]

I wanted to add this here - please keep in mind that a bedtime routine can be key to a good, or even halfway decent sleeper. All of these things you are trying here and there, may be further complicating the issue. You have to pick a routine and stick with it. Consistency is key. I have had my kid on a bedtime routine since very early on, like 8 weeks. It's been a lifesaver. Bath, pajamas, some milk in a bottle (now a sippy) then I lay him down with his blanket and bun bun, kiss goodnight and I am out the door. The sound machine is also on.

And I know exactly what you're talking about with the inconsolable screaming, my son is a good sleeper but we have still had nights like that. I can tell you from my experience, that interfering only makes it worse 95% of the time. By no means am I telling you to not go in and at least check on him, but sometimes when you go through this several nights in a row and have ruled out any health issues, well, you have to let them work it out on their own.

Good luck to you. I wish all babies and toddlers realized how effing amazing sleep is!!!

[spicysalmonroll]

Wanted to thank everyone for the advice on my sleep training post from a week ago. I had the 6 month old waking 5-8 times a night. We've got it down to twice a night, which is amazing!! It was never my goal at this age for STTN.
Biggest thing was stopping the nurse to sleep. We now give a bottle, then do the routine with jammies and books and place him down awake but rubbing his eyes. I thought for sure he was going to flip a shit when I walked away... He was asleep within 3 minutes!! We actually didn't even need to do CIO once this fell into place. He started waking at 10 & 11 and just putting himself right back down til 1. I feed. Then sometimes at 4 he stirs and puts himself down but most of the time I get up with him. Again fine by me compared to what I was getting up previously. Yay

[pinkie]

Feb 20, 2017 16:08:26 GMT -5 spicysalmonroll said:

Wanted to thank everyone for the advice on my sleep training post from a week ago. I had the 6 month old waking 5-8 times a night. We've got it down to twice a night, which is amazing!! It was never my goal at this age for STTN.
Biggest thing was stopping the nurse to sleep. We now give a bottle, then do the routine with jammies and books and place him down awake but rubbing his eyes. I thought for sure he was going to flip a shit when I walked away... He was asleep within 3 minutes!! We actually didn't even need to do CIO once this fell into place. He started waking at 10 & 11 and just putting himself right back down til 1. I feed. Then sometimes at 4 he stirs and puts himself down but most of the time I get up with him. Again fine by me compared to what I was getting up previously. Yay

This is awesome - I'm happy you are in such a better place.