Hmmm...repeating "prek" or Level 2 montessori?

[mustardseed2007]

TL;DR: DS' teacher says he should repeat prek and I'm surprised. What would you do? 


So...we are in a montessori school right now with the kids. It's a full day program, the kids in there are age 3-6. 

When we last had a parent teacher conference we were told that DS is behind where they would expect him to be for his age. They suggested that he may end up being a child who repeats kindergarten. This seemed kind of premature to me to say because he was 4 at the time. He's not even scheduled to be in Kinder until next year. 

But also, our plan was for him to probably go to public school beginning in 1st grade anyway. So I figured, if he needs to repeat kinder then he will be in a different school anyway and that would be fine. He'd be new with all the new kids and that would actually work out IF it needed to happen. 

Well now, his progress report says he should be held back and repeat 2nd level...So not go on to kindergarten. This is not what I expected to hear and...I don't know how I feel about that. And I kind of don't even know what that means in a montessori setting anyway. I know what getting held back in kindergarten means in a montessori setting but not what being held back in 2nd level means...I'm just kind of at a loss. And now I'm annoyed with myself because I should have pushed more maybe to find out what they were doing to help him get on track. 

the only thing we really did with the last report I got was we started working on numbers at home - which by the way is hard to do when you get home with your very tired 4 year old at 6pm! - and then he seemed to quickly progress from that. And when I inquired they'd let me know what he was working on but then just said "it's going to take time". 

Sorry. I just kind of feel like we're failing him and I don't know what to ask the teachers or what to do for him right now.  


ETA: And plus also, why do his teacher's gotta send this out the Friday before a week long holiday? Monday is their first day of Spring Break. He's still going but his lead teachers may/probably aren't even there. Gah! 

[helenahhandbasket]

Ugh, I'm sorry. You aren't failing him.

I wonder if the same assessment would be given if he was in public school? I'm not 100% sure of what Montessori entails, but I know the philosophy is fairly different from traditional public school.

Is he young for pre K, like on the cusp of the cutoff? Aside from numbers, did the teacher give you any other areas that she wants to see improvement in?

[akafred]

I am very familiar with Montessori and I have never heard of this. I have heard of a "bonus year" but it is repeating the third year in the cycle and treated very positively. Second year and third year work is identical. The classroom is identical. I don't even understand. I would definitely be speaking with them in detail about what that means practically speaking, and be clear that the plan is to do M through K then move to public school for first or possibly public for a second year of K. To me, that sounds like a good plan.

Sometimes the third year/kinder kids do some special work or get pulled out once a day or once a week (perhaps during nap time for the younger kids) and do something requiring more focus, such as reading a long chapter book or doing bigger group lessons with more detail. If they feel like he lacks the required focus for that, then that may be what they are getting at and would LOOK like repeating second year I guess.

But the other thing is, what are they observing that makes them feel this way? Montessori is big on observation so I would want to hear those observations. And then the next question from that is if those observations would make some kind of an evaluation make sense. Especially if you are headed to public anyway, maybe starting a private eval now and then starting a public school eval next fall to transition into an IEP for the following year is a good idea. I don't think I would stop with "he needs to repeat second year"; I would dig deeper to the underlying causes of that assessment.

((Hugs)). It sucks. Especially the timing. Maybe they wanted to give you time to sit on the idea. Hang in there.

[brachysira]

I am not as familiar with montessori, but yes, I thought they were all mixed in for 2 preschool years and one K year and it was supposed to be a natural thing for the oldest kids to take a leadership role and teach the younger ones, but no one was supposed to be explicitly assigned a role. I would think they would just keep him in and then either suggest a bonus additional year before 1st grade or tell you to start him in public K after his 3rd year. But then all kind of places can claim they are montessori without doing anything montessori, so I guess you need to find out what the levels mean and how they are treated. To me, one of the really valuable things about montessori is that they have the older kids there so younger kids benefit from observation of experienced kids and conversation with older kids and big kids get to have a leadership position and reinforce the things they have learned, so if they don't do that, perhaps you need to reassess what the school offers that you like.

Yes, I would definitely want to know more about what they are observing. If they really feel he is behind, are they offering any changes or suggesting a reason? If they predict at 4 that he'll be held back in K, are they observing some kind of learning disability? I would be super irritated to hear someone tell me that my kid would not succeed in school without offering some reasonings and suggestions about what to do to prevent the problems. I know montessori ratios can be high--would a smaller program with more adults be a better fit? If he learns well from you, but he can't make any progress there, maybe he would benefit from a less independence-focused program? Would moving to K next year be better? Perhaps a more didactic style would fit him and a good teacher might spot any actual issues? Do you have a transitional/developmental/young 5's program, which in many areas is just 2 year K? Many kids start K without much academic knowledge (our preschool is entirely play-based) but if he's not learning at montessori, a jump to 1st grade would be harder. If they just feel he is a little young and immature, then perhaps a different style preschool would be a better fit...

[traveltheworld]

DS is in Montessori and so are most of our friends' kids and I have never heard of this. It's a 3 year cycle - they work at their own pace, so how does "repeating" or holding back even work?

Do you personally feel like he is behind? I think that would influence how I'd handle this. From what I can observe, Montessori for a 4 year old should be pretty simple - basic letters, numbers, but a lot more on "practical life" stuff. Frankly I have no idea what "academic" stuff DS is learning, and he is at one of the top Montessori schools in the city. He just seems happy and likes going, so that's enough for me. Shouldn't that be enough for most 4 year olds?

I'm sorry you are dealing with this.

[sdlaura]

It seems from your post that they think he's behind due to some academic reason, like numbers? I think I would only hold a kid back for social/emotional readiness. To me, preschool is for play, and kids shouldn't really need to know anything academic for kindergarten - I mean, that's what it's for. Without knowing your child, of course, I would be inclined to have my child move on to K and then repeat that if necessary.

[mustardseed2007]

I asked for a conference and I was able to find out that his lead teacher will be there next week so maybe I can get one next week.

DH did pick up so I called him on his way there and told him about the report, and asked him to talk to the school administrator about what 2nd level repeat really means but of course she wasn't still there at 5.

This is going to be another TLDR but I'm trying to organize my thoughts and quell the panic cause I'm kind of at an 11 which is not constructive.

It seems like they have 3 areas of concern:
1) Focus & Desire to Learn:
In the comments they say that he has to be directed to math and language work and that he doesn't have the inner drive or focus required for kindergarten work. Which is kind of weird since we're talking about 5 year olds but I do get it.

But they point out that he does do long science work which involves matching, patterning, and ending with making a book where he copies words.

2) Social
They also point out that his close friendships are with younger kids. That is also definitely true. Most of his friends are in 1st level.

3) Lack of knowledge
This wasn't on the progress report but it was the focus of our last parent teacher conference. He is behind on math and language b/c he won't choose that work. He has to be directed to it.

My concerns:
1) His age
He is a DECEMBER birthday. The natural wondering if I should red shirt my July birthday does not apply. His age really concerns me notwithstanding his lack of maturity right now.

2) What kind of solution is there for the social aspect? I don't even know what to ask them to do?
DS is Worried about getting stuff right. He feels naturally more at home with the 3-4 year olds rather than his peers the 5-6 year olds.

On the other hand he doesn't cry at drop off or throw fits in the classroom. He's very well behaved. Very shy. When he is feeling nervous he reverts to acting like a baby. Like takes on a baby voice etc.

3) WTF is repeating 2nd level??
Honestly, despite the fact that I think much of what they are saying is kind of accurate...I am still thrown by exactly what all of you said. I have no idea what repeating 2nd level means. He is going to NOTICE if he doesn't get pulled to do kindergarten stuff. There's all kinds of stuff kindergartners do and he's LOOKING FORWARD to doing it. He's in a classroom with them FFS. And talk about the social aspect, the other kids are going to certainly notice!

4)Is montessori right for him right now?
It's looking like the environment is playing into his weaknesses. He doesn't want to do math and language...and in a montessori environment he can avoid it up to a point.
He wants to hang out with younger kids b/c he feels more comfortable...there are younger kids available to hang out with and so he hangs out with them...KWIM?

5) But is public school or traditional private the answer?
I've always been and still am totally worried about him being run over and swallowed up in a public school environment given that he is unsure of himself and probably less mature than other kids his age.
I'd be hoping with more direction and a different structure that he'd rise to the occasion...but he might not and that would suck for him.

Again, GAH!

[mustardseed2007]

Mar 10, 2017 19:43:02 GMT -5 helenahhandbasket said:

Ugh, I'm sorry. You aren't failing him.

I wonder if the same assessment would be given if he was in public school? I'm not 100% sure of what Montessori entails, but I know the philosophy is fairly different from traditional public school.

Is he young for pre K, like on the cusp of the cutoff? Aside from numbers, did the teacher give you any other areas that she wants to see improvement in?

Not young. He's a December birthday. that's one of my main concerns. 

[mustardseed2007]

Mar 10, 2017 23:46:28 GMT -5 traveltheworld said:

DS is in Montessori and so are most of our friends' kids and I have never heard of this. It's a 3 year cycle - they work at their own pace, so how does "repeating" or holding back even work?

Do you personally feel like he is behind? I think that would influence how I'd handle this. From what I can observe, Montessori for a 4 year old should be pretty simple - basic letters, numbers, but a lot more on "practical life" stuff. Frankly I have no idea what "academic" stuff DS is learning, and he is at one of the top Montessori schools in the city. He just seems happy and likes going, so that's enough for me. Shouldn't that be enough for most 4 year olds?

I'm sorry you are dealing with this.

Yeah to be honest...when they told me last conference that he was behind, I didn't give it too much thought. Kids this age can change so much in a few months. And honestly I thought he was really jumping on the letter/number band wagon. He keeps coming home and telling me he's masted this letter set or now onto ... whatever bead thing. 

But I guess it's possible that he was not so much jumping on it as being pushed onto it...and then telling me about it b/c I was so interested in it. To me, it's hard to tell if he's behind. He doesn't know letter names. But I don't believe they are teaching letter names. The knowledge base is not typical of my experience so it's hard for me to say.

[mustardseed2007]

Mar 10, 2017 23:54:20 GMT -5 sdlaura said:

It seems from your post that they think he's behind due to some academic reason, like numbers? I think I would only hold a kid back for social/emotional readiness. To me, preschool is for play, and kids shouldn't really need to know anything academic for kindergarten - I mean, that's what it's for. Without knowing your child, of course, I would be inclined to have my child move on to K and then repeat that if necessary.

The only emotional aspect they mentioned was more social. Most of his friends are younger. I can't deny that's true. 

But it's not like he has a problem going into class or throws fits or gets in fights. He's very chill. 

[mustardseed2007]

brachysira, I thought the same thing about maybe he needs to be in a more traditional setting where they tell him what they expect him to learn; a bit more top down...so yeah I'm looking into public right now.

Of course the other shoe is DD. She's supposed to move up to an early child hood (3-6) class next month. Just based on her personality, I think she's going to do really well.

[mustardseed2007]

akafred, in our last conference I actually asked about anxiety and brought it up to our pediatrician also. Neither the teacher nor the pedi thought he needed to be evaluated even though his teacher was saying that she thinks it's his perfectionism that keeps him from trying difficult things and is causing him to be behind.

What type of evaluation should I ask for? I don't mind doing private at all. DD was in private speech therapy and private physical therapy and got a lot out of it. This is different though...cause there I knew what I thought the problem was. Here I don't feel like I know what I'm asking them to do.

[akafred]

No, they usually don't teach letter names in Montessori. They teach sounds. So DD called an "A" an "ah" until probably halfway through K, maybe more. Which is fine and honestly makes sense for learning to read.

I don't know that you can really move forward much until you have the conference and learn what their observations are and what expectations he is not capable of. You really need to know what the observations are. Also just because 6 months or a year ago they said an eval wasn't needed doesn't mean they won't say it is now. That happened with DD. I pushed her teacher a couple weeks before her fourth birthday to tell me if she had any concerns for the pedi. 3 months later she made up her mind DD needed an eval. Plus some Montessorians might be slower to recommend that anyway, just by nature.

If you have no concerns about autism (and I'm not hearing it innwhat you are saying so far), I would start 1 of 2 places. Either find someone who does private kindergarten evaluations and see what they say, or find a private psychologist (private meaning not affiliated with a hospital or larger psych group). The kinder eval should be a couple hours of brief testing and a few hundred bucks, but it will shed a lot of light on how behind he really is academically and hint at possible problems or concerns. But you might end up at a psych anyway. Make sure you ask them to make sure they will eval a kid his age; a lot will not. You want to ask things like what percentage of patients are 5 year olds. Ok here is where I inject that saying they should be unaffiliated with a hospital is my bias and your mileage may vary, but in our case the large teaching hospital is primarily concerned with large global delays (CP, Ds) and autism. ADHD/anxiety don't register for them and we found no help there. Perhaps it would have been better if we had ended up in the adoption center. I have heard better things there, but they are primarily international focused. Anyway, a private psychologist did C's testing after the teaching hospital said they absolutely would not even consider evaluating or treating V for ADHD until she was A) at least 7 and B) in public school and C) failing academically. Assholes. The psych who did eval her did a parent intake appt and Vanderbilt scales (parent and teacher), followed by six visits with C for play therapy, followed by a BASC-2 (parent and teacher), followed by a parent visit to discuss the observations and get the eval. We also did play therapy for 18 months but it honestly wasn't very helpful for her; she HATES me to tell him anything "bad" and wouldn't share her feelings so it was not good. Plus traffic getting there made me hate my life lol.

[xctsclrx]

I went to montessori as a child I have very poor memories of it. As in I was four years old and 20 plus years later I still remember the dread of going.

That being said my mom said I loved it until we got a new teacher and that teacher and I didn't click well.

Montessori works until it doesn't and many things contribute to that. It sounds like montessori just isn't working for him anymore. He might benefit in a more traditional environment that gives him that is less independent learning and more structured. Also it will remove him from the younger kids and you can truly see if he is emotionally immature or not. It doesn't sound like your son is having issues learning. It sounds like he is capable but not interested and that is very normal. Does anyone go do things they don't like if they don't have to.

From you have said here version what I hear from some of my kindergarten teacher friends I think he would be very successful in public kindergarten.

[mommyatty]

I am quite positive that Montessori would have been terrible for me and for DD. Not sure yet about DS. And it's for many of the reasons you state regarding being able to avoid what you don't like working on. I think that's so absolutely normal.

Yes, talk to them. Tell them you want him to start the kindy work and that you'll assess whether or not he needs to repeat kindy in a public school before he starts 1st grade.

[mustardseed2007]

Yes we definitely need to do the conference. I'm only guessing at what they are exactly thinking.

What are ya'lls thoughts about his age and having him repeat kindergarten? It may seem silly (or maybe not?) But next school year he'll turn 6 in December - 3 months in. The following year he'll be 7.

I mean, maturity is maturity but it feels like sending a really old kid to Kindergarten right now if that's what we do. And do public schools go for that?

[supertrooper1]

I think if I was in your situation, I would start DS in public K this coming school year. The changes in curriculum styles will be a big transition for him and I think starting him in kindergarten will get him on track with his peers now, rather than playing catch up in 1st grade. In my area, kindergarteners are pretty much expected to know their letters and numbers by the time they start school, but they spend the year learning the letters, writing them and counting to 100.

I know what it's like trying to work with a cranky kid in the evening, but I would try to incorporate numbers and letters now in his everyday routines. We bought DS a placemat that has the alphabet and he loves it. We count stairs as we go up and down the stairs to his bedroom. Little things like that make a big difference IMO.

[akafred]

I don't have a problem with either keeping him in K at Montessori and starting him at K in public a year later or going ahead and sending him to K in public this year. He's apparently not super ahead academically (or maybe a little behind), so it won't hurt to repeat. It's when they are ahead academically and only a little behind socially that I worry holding back is hurting not helping.

I just don't think you have enough info to make that decision yet.

[mommyatty]

I have a good friend who had her son do private kinder and then public kinder. He was emotionally a little immature, but frankly their biggest reason was Dad was drafted to an a NFL team after being an All American in college. They wanted him to have an extra year to physically mature before college.

The kid noticed. They fed him a line about having to do public school kinder because private didn't count. But he knew he was being held back. He has a March birthday, so he's not quite as old as your son. But he will still graduate high school at 19.

[brachysira]

We know a ton of kids here who do transitional K, so they start DK at 5 and then start K at 6. Plus, in our slightly affluent LCOL suburb, there are lots of SAHMs and grandparents, so people often just choose to spend an extra year with their child doing part time cozy preschool and then start them in K when they turn 6. At least around here people say that school is so rigorous and that 5 is too young for a long day of expectations. That said, if there is some kind of problem, it's better to see it sooner than later, and school might highlight the issue.

I also don't think there's anything wrong with playing with younger kids. That's what montessori is for, and my DD's best friend at school is 5.5 while DD just turned 4.

Could you get a nanny or something this summer and have him do some workbooks, etc. with her to get up to speed before K?

My DD also suffers from perfectionism...I think it's common in bright kids and I don't know if you need to have him treated for it unless it's really disabling...

[traveltheworld]

Mar 11, 2017 7:21:49 GMT -5 mustardseed2007 said:

akafred , in our last conference I actually asked about anxiety and brought it up to our pediatrician also. Neither the teacher nor the pedi thought he needed to be evaluated even though his teacher was saying that she thinks it's his perfectionism that keeps him from trying difficult things and is causing him to be behind.

What type of evaluation should I ask for? I don't mind doing private at all. DD was in private speech therapy and private physical therapy and got a lot out of it. This is different though...cause there I knew what I thought the problem was. Here I don't feel like I know what I'm asking them to do.

In case you do want to pursue an evaluation - we did a private psychological and education evaluation for DS through a child psychologist.  It was an 8 hour assessment that included the WISC-IV (IQ testing), 1.5 hour parent interview, multiple parent and pre-school teacher questionnaires that needed to be completed, and 1.5 hour of classroom observation by the psychologist.  We did it because there were a few months where we were really having problems dealing with DS, and we were a bit concerned about his level of anxiety.  AND it was fully covered by insurance. DS just thought it was fun.

It sounds like DS also had some of the same problem as your son - in that DS refuses to learn certain things unless he was interested. Or he would learn/know something, but refuse to show it.  Even up until a few months ago, DH and I thought he didn't know how to count pass 100, but one night, when I was sitting beside him reading my book, he looked over and casually said "oh mommy, you are on page 324.  You were on page 304 last night.  Did you read the 20 pages after I fell asleep?"  I was blown away.

One of the most helpful things I found out of the testing process was that the child psychologist said that bright children tend to exhibit a lot of the symptoms we see in DS, especially in the early years - the refusal to cooperate, perfectionist tendencies, and anxiety.  But unless it poses a serious impediment to his overall academic learning or daily function, it's really not something to worry about.  They will mature and these problems will most likely resolve on their own.  I find it sad that our country places such high demands on our children in terms of academics at such an early age - 4 year olds aren't suppose to sit there and "learn" stuff that they are not interested in!!!!

All that is to say, if you can find a good psychologist, I would recommend testing.  When you call places, you can specify that you want a comprehensive education placement and psychological testing.  Then at the very minimum, it could put your own mind at ease.  And you can take the test results back to the school and discuss with his teachers.  For his first year in Montessori, DS just sat there most of the time and didn't participate in anything. I suspect if he was in your son's school, he'd probably be asked to repeat a level.  But thorough testing from a child psychologist showed that there is nothing wrong with DS, and I suspect there is nothing wrong with your son either!

[sandandsea]

I would maybe look for him to do a different school for a year of prek. It seems like they have seen this coming for a year but haven't done much to help avoid it happening in the past year. Kind of like he's been pigeonholed?

I wouldn't worry about it too much as kids develop at very different rates. DS has grown up so much in the past year (from 4-5) and while his personality is still very much the same, I have seen great improvements in some areas like self control and writing and such but writing will never be his strong point or interest.

[mustardseed2007]

traveltheworld, how did you go about finding someone to do the eval?

[traveltheworld]

Mar 12, 2017 11:11:40 GMT -5 mustardseed2007 said:

traveltheworld, how did you go about finding someone to do the eval?

There's a school for gifted children in our area which requires the IQ testing as part of the application process. We never intended to apply there but thought that was a good place to start, since they take a lot of "twice exceptional" (kids with high IQ but also some learning issues such as adhd). I called that school and asked which child psychology clinics they typically see show up on application forms, then called those places and asked about comprehensive testing. I was very clear that we were not wanting to do the IQ test, but rather a comprehensive education placement test and psychological evaluation. I got a good feel of the places, and psychologists. We then met with 2 of the psychologists and found one we liked before we had him test DS directly.

[traveltheworld]

I should add, even though we didn't intend to do the IQ test, our psychologist convinced us we should as it would give us a more comprehensive picture.

The key thing we wanted to know was whether DS would be OK in regular public school. We are in a very good public school district, but we were concerned about DS's refusal to learn stuff and follow instructions and his anxiety. So we wanted an opinion as to whether we should consider private school or even something very alternative like Waldorf. But the psychologist assured us he'd be fine in regular public. And you know what, DS has changed so much even in the past 3 months that we are no longer concerned about it. So maybe some of these things just take time. They are so young still.

[2chatter]

It sounds to me like maybe the school is very uncomfortable directing him at all. Oldest and youngest did well with Montessori, but had totally different experiences. DS (there now) had to be directed to do real work - he was happy to languish in practical life. Until he was bored, which is where they got him into reading and math. They created new work he would be into (dinosaur manipulatives being one example) and really pushed him more than the Montessori model calls for. Another thing that helped is his friends (older) moved to primary and he wanted to join them. He moved up to primary in January. So to me it just sounds like your DS isn't externally motivated by anything on offer there. And that could be the extent of the "issue".

He may flourish in public K. He may need support there.

I think testing is well worth the peace of mind. I also think that what you describe sounds pretty normal to me and Montessori expectations are 300 percent of public school expectations.

[mustardseed2007]

I have gathered some recommendations of evaluation places. The place used by families that go to the grand master of all private schools in my city costs 3,000 for testing. Not sure what DH is going to say about that.

Although I found another place that's 1,000 and another place that I don't know the cost of yet.

DS' teacher was at school but they don't like us to have long conversations at the beginning of the day, and I dunno, I was expecting an email this morning in response to my request for a conference. Given that I haven't received it, I'm regretting my decision not to pull the teacher out of class regardless of the normal protocol. It's spring break, who cares about protocol?


ETA: Strike that, it wasn't near that much at the fancy pants place so I booked an appointment. It's going to take a while to get in though. 

[seamonster]

In this situation, I'd plan on switching to public K when he's eligible rather than "repeating" Year 2. Lots of kids go to K with no formal preschool and do fine. It may be that Montessori isn't working for him anymore and he needs more structure. I don't think wanting to be around the younger kids is necessarily a sign of immaturity; if he likes to take charge, they might be easier to do that with.

[2chatter]

mustardseed2007 - when we thought DS had executive functioning issues I waitlisted with a play therapist. The issues (choices, made worse by Montessori structure of course) resolved before the therapist was available. I hope the same for you!

[mustardseed2007]

2chatter, May 4th...so if it resolves by then I will be so happy!!

She promised to call me back if something opens up sooner and I may follow up periodically to inquire.