I need sleep help

[pinkie]

I'm at my wits end with Z and his sleep problems. Something has to change and I hope to get some honest feedback on how to do this.

Backstory: he's been a super tough sleeper since birth. Skip ahead to age 2 - we did full blown CIO and after 3 horrible nights he started going to sleep on his own and would sleep all night.

2 months before turning 3 everything suddenly changed. He was waking up screaming and after a few months of hell we decided to convert his crib to a bed. He has one or two good nights and then started waking up the whole house screaming and running around upstairs in the middle of the night. After a few weeks of this I broke and put a crib mattress on our floor and he's been sleeping there ever since.

The past 3 nights he has been screaming and crying that he doesn't want to go to sleep himself. By some miracle our little guy hasn't been waking up but we can't have him screaming continuously - at some point he will wake the little guy.

He was up till 11 last night. We have to reset things but I just don't know how to do this.

I am thinkihg of making him go back to his bed and one of us sits in the hall until he falls asleep. I just don't know what to do if he won't stay in his room. If we put up a gate he would take it down. We could lock him in but he totally flips out and will throw himself against the door and kick it. I'm actually worried he would hurt himself and/or break the door.

I feel like I need a firm plan because he will test it. he is very very strong willed.

Basically HELP

And please recommend your favorite wine to drink during all this

[dc2london]

Oh, yikes, that sounds really stressful. Is he awake during all of this, or is he having night terrors?

[pinkie]

He is awake, it's not night terrors. He just continues to say he doesn't want to go to sleep by himself. He wants me to go to bed when he does and that's not happening.

We have tried rewarding him for going to bed without chaos. We let him stay up for one extra show (until 8) and have snuggle time with us on the couch, we have tried a food reward, we have tried praising for having a good night. We tried a sticker chart. Everything works for a few days and then he reverts.

[dc2london]

That sounds like some intense anxiety, poor kid. Is he afraid of the dark? Bad dreams?

[pinkie]

He tells us he is afraid of the dark so we let him sleep with the lights on but then he says he's afraid to be alone.

I just don't know what to do because I'm not sure how much is fear vs him stalling. If it's all due to fear I don't want to make things worse but there seems to be an element here of him wanting to get his way. We have let him bring his pillow into the hallway so he physically can see us below him watching tv and then he stares at us and doesn't go to sleep. Last night my husband went to bed with him since it was 10 pm and he had to sleep and then he cried he wanted me. So he's definitely working on his own agenda in addition to fears.

I also wish he would stop napping at daycare. When he doesn't nap be crashes by 7:30. But I can't expect daycare to keep a 3 year old up.

[dc2london]

Oct 27, 2016 11:51:25 GMT -5 pinkie said:

He tells us he is afraid of the dark so we let him sleep with the lights on but then he says he's afraid to be alone.

I just don't know what to do because I'm not sure how much is fear vs him stalling. If it's all due to fear I don't want to make things worse but there seems to be an element here of him wanting to get his way. We have let him bring his pillow into the hallway so he physically can see us below him watching tv and then he stares at us and doesn't go to sleep. Last night my husband went to bed with him since it was 10 pm and he had to sleep and then he cried he wanted me. So he's definitely working on his own agenda in addition to fears.

I also wish he would stop napping at daycare. When he doesn't nap be crashes by 7:30. But I can't expect daycare to keep a 3 year old up.

Eehhhh IDK, it kind of sounds like the nap is a part of the problem. Typically when bedtime falls apart with a 3 yo it's time to consider dropping the nap. Will daycare work with you on this?

[kleigh926]

Totally agree that dropping the nap should be the first step. While not as extreme as your situation, napping very negatively affects DD's nighttime sleep as well. Don't know how much control you have over that with day care, but I think that naps should be optional at 3 years old, especially if the parent says it's ruining bedtime.

I also have a strong-willed child (well two actually, lucky me) and I completely understand the element of a child having a legitimate fear, but then using that to manipulate and make it worse than it has to be. If it were me, I would definitely put him back in his own room, lock him in, sit in the hall if you have to, and discipline for kicking the door or being otherwise destructive. Stand your ground. And I know that's waaaay easier said than done when it comes to sleep issues, but the longer this goes on the worse it will probably get.

ETA: One thing that helped us when DD would stay up late at night after napping was telling her she could play in her room for awhile as long as she was quiet if she didn't want to go to sleep right away. Do you think that would help him settle down, if he knew he was allowed to play for awhile in his room?

[brachysira]

Well, my kid always resists bed and she was also up until 11 after napping. But we've always had her sleep in her own bed. She says she's scared, she has 10 emergencies, but she always has to be in bed. She has a nightlight and toys and will just talk to herself for hours. For a while, she had a flashlight, but we decided that prolonged her going to sleep. If you really think your kid doesn't need the sleep after napping, I'd just give him an hour of TV or i-pad time and put him to bed later. Or if you think TV hypes him up or you won't use it, you could just have him spend an hour reading books with the lights on before lights off. Or if you feel like he needs more wearing out, you could hire a neighbor kid to take him to the playground for an hour in the evening or something.

[seadragon2013]

Ugh, that sounds really rough. I'm not much of a help because we still snuggle DS to sleep most of the time, which needs to stop before the new baby.

[pinkie]

So far this has sucked. Blood curdling screaming with my husband upstairs. My husband gave him a walkie talkie and telling him became use it to talk to us. He is very interested in it so at least the screaming has stopped.

[mishka29]

That's a rough one. We use the door handle locks so DD can't get out. Hopefully you DS will get used to having it on the door. Toys to distract are always a win!

[pinkie]

So after a lot of screaming, he finally went to sleep by 9:15 with me sitting outside his room. We will see if he sleeps through. I highly doubt it, I just hope he isn't screaming a ton MOTN.

[summer]

We have two gates stacked on top of each other in DS' doorway. That was the only thing that worked when we had to re-sleep-train at 2.5, and we've left it that way every since as it seems to make him feel secure (he will actually remind us to put up his gates if we don't!). But that way, he can have his bedroom door open or closed as he likes, which is different every night.

If it were me, I would redo CIO with the gates, so you can talk to him through the gate and reassure him you are there, but not go in the room. Do you do the progressive waiting with CIO?

[pinkie]

last night was a disaster. After a ton of screaming (door open, he was in bed and I say in the hall) he crashed at 9:15 so I was happy. But then starting at 10:30 he woke up screaming every 30 minutes. I went and rubbed his back before he could get out of bed (from past experience he runs screaming down the hallway). But it just kept continuing every 30 min. I caved at 1 am and brought him back to the mattress on the floor of the master but then he screamed and cried until 1:30 that he wanted to be in bed with me (that is one thing we haven't done so I don't even know where that came from). He finally crashed and then slept till 7. I'm a zombie today.

I signed up for a free phone consult with a sleep consultant for Tuesday. I'm making my husband take tonight and I'm going to curl up in some far corner of the house where I can't hear anything

[cinnasugar]

Ugh. So sorry things are bad. DH or I have to sit in DS's room until he falls asleep or is nearly there, most nights. We don't lay in his bed but sit in a chair in his room. Baby steps.

[dc2london]

Oh goodness, that's brutal. I hope the sleep consultant can help!

[pinkie]

So last night we realized everyone needed to sleep so we did a reset, moved him back to where he has been sleeping (mattress on floor of the master) and I went to bed with him at 8 because I needed a lot of sleep. Sleep was great. Tonight we put him to bed himself on the same spot and he went right to sleep. Until we come up with a solid plan to move him we are going to keep things as they are. If he would sleep like he is tonight every night I wouldn't care (much) that he's in there. I just want us all to sleep.

[beenandgone]

Wow, I'm so sorry. Sleep problems are the absolute devil. We've been struggling with sleep problems with the 1yo. And after a particularly awful night, I finally took him in to the Dr.

Poor kid had a raging ear infection. Based on how long our sleep issues have been going on, I'm afraid to find out how long he's had it.


Not saying it's something like that, but does Z have seasonal allergies? Could something be giving him bad ear pain that is causing the initial wake ups?

[pinkie]

Oct 31, 2016 5:56:26 GMT -5 beenandgone said:

Wow, I'm so sorry. Sleep problems are the absolute devil. We've been struggling with sleep problems with the 1yo. And after a particularly awful night, I finally took him in to the Dr.

Poor kid had a raging ear infection. Based on how long our sleep issues have been going on, I'm afraid to find out how long he's had it.


Not saying it's something like that, but does Z have seasonal allergies? Could something be giving him bad ear pain that is causing the initial wake ups?

He has asthma (mild) but hasn't been properly tested for allergies. That's an interesting idea and I haven't considered.

Last night he went to sleep fine but between 8-10:30 he woke up screaming every 30 min. He truly was half awake and half asleep. I had to really work to wake him the one time and then I started talking about Halloween and he snapped out of it and told me he would go back to sleep. It's tough because some of it is just him and behavior but then sometimes he has night terror type events. At least he slept ok after that.

I have a phone consultation with a sleep person tomorrow.

[wineandcake]

How did the consult go pinkie?

We've been having trouble with sleep lately. Mac will only stay in his bed for 2 hours before he comes to us. He won't go back to sleep in his own room, just sits and comes back every 10 minutes. I'm thinking it's time for him to start putting himself to sleep at bedtime rather than us cuddling him to sleep, but I feel so bad doing that because he loves the snuggles so much and so do I. I know I'm likely making it worse by cuddling to sleep, but it's such a hard habit to break. He's starting to take closer than an hour to get down now. I wish he had just been a perfect sleeper from the start like my younger boy, he cuddles for a second then in the crib alone to fall asleep and has regularly STTN since birth.

[dc2london]

I am just here bc I'm curious what the sleep consultant said. I hope you are well, pinkie, and that you have a plan for helping your kiddo sleep!

[pinkie]

I had a phone consult the other day and liked her approach and she just generally sounded like she knows what she's doing (also she had a ton of 5 star Google reviews). Basically the plan will be to do behavior modification. she said he will have choices and when he makes the right choice he gets a reward and then hopefully he will start wanting to do the right thing (go to sleep and sleep in his bed). She said it typically takes 3-5 weeks to complete the change.

we are moving forward. Next step is for me to complete a detailed questionnaire and then she's coming to our house to meet with my husband and I next Friday to discuss her sleep plan. We are going to be out for the entire day next Saturday so I wouldn't want to start until Sunday night.

I'll let you all know what she says.

[summer]

How is the sleep training going?

[pinkie]

The sleep consultant came today to go over the plan with my husband and I. We really like her - she seems to really know what she's doing.

We are starting the plan a week from today.

I'll type out the plan over the next week - she was here 2 hours and there was a lot. I like the general approach which is gentle (starting with us sitting in his room until he falls asleep) but then includes consequences for not following the plan.

I think he will respond to this.

On an immediate note, he's been way better the past few days. He's still on the mattress on the master floor but he's been sleeping way better so at least we are happy for now

[pinkie]

I wanted to share an update. Knock on wood - he has been doing absolutely wonderful with sleep. It's been about 2 weeks since we started the consultant's plan and he now falls asleep on his own in his bed and more or less stays there until 6:45 ish. Many nights he gets up once and asks for help going potty.

It's really been amazing, he responded very well to the plan which includes a bedtime routine and rules for the night. We have both printed and he reads them to my husband each night. By going to bed on his own and staying there all night (he gets a reprieve for a bathroom break) he gets a small prize in the morning (I got all dollar store things). We will be phasing the prize out at some point but for now we are making a very positive outcome for doing what we tell him to. He loves the prizes. He is proud of himself for doing well.

We didn't go directly to this point - we started out sitting in his room as he fell asleep and slowly moved away. If he didn't follow the rules he got a warning and then we would leave the room with the door shut for 1 minute, then 2 minutes. He actually did so well with everything we only had to do the door shut thing 4x over the 2 weeks and this was not all in one night. We really just had to show him we were serious about the rules.

A few other things - she had us cut tv within an hour of bedtime and he has meditation music he falls asleep to (he loves this!!). She also had us talk to daycare about not letting him nap more than 30 minutes.

I felt like paying for this service was extravegant but it's given us back such quality of life. We are no longer fighting with him for hours a night. We are all sleeping so much better and there is no mattress on the floor of our bedroom

[mishka29]

Sometimes the money is worth the result and your situation sounded a little desperate. Glad to hear it's working so well.