Seeking advice - toddler behavior - is this normal?

[jcrewgirl]

We're starting to have some behavioral problems at home and school and I'm not sure if they are normal for an almost 3 year old. M14, please impart your wisdom on me. I've been on Google and I'm trying to figure out if she falls on the spectrum or if this is a phase or what so I'll take any advice or "me too" comments. Let me preface this by saying, I don't think she is gifted or anything like that but she's incredibly smart and independent which is such a downfall right now. For instance she knew all of her letters when she was 20 months old. She would memorize a book and "read" it to me verbatim word for word since last summer. She had a great memory and picks up on when things aren't being done the right way and will correct whomever needs correcting. 

We've had little tantrums here and there, but we had our first epic tantrum at my in-laws' house in February. She had only had a 45 minute nap, we had been on an airplane that day for the first time, not in our normal routine, etc. - I'm not trying to create excuses because if something is wrong, I want to confront it head on. Anyways, for over an hour, she was HYSTERICAL. She'd tell me to go away and I'd move away from her and then she'd freak out again because I wasn't hugging her. I tried to hug her and received the same response. She was inconsolable and it was because her dad got her out of her car seat, not me. This is also happening at 9pm (way past her bedtime) because we were visiting w/her cousin until late at night. 

We've had a few other epic tantrums usually around bedtime where she acts possessed. On Monday, she bit a classmate for the first time. We talked about it at home and when I dropped her off yesterday, she knew she was going to say she was sorry to the classmate. When DH and I picked the kids up yesterday, we went to her (empty) classroom to sign out. Her routine is to scribble next to my name - we got to the classroom and she wanted a snack. She didn't have any snacks there so I told her "no, we'll have some apple slices at home" - she took the clipboard with the sign-in sheet and hurled it across the room. I picked it up and gave her one more opportunity to sign it. She tried to hit me. I told DH to get the baby and I picked DD up and carried her like a rolled-up carpet out of school to the car. Now, she's really pissed. As my husband put it, she looked like a "rabid monkey" in the back seat. I physically couldn't restrain her to her car seat. When I tried to, she'd thrash out and try to kick, hit, pinch, grab, and bite me. DH physically puts her in her seat and she's hysterical the entire 8 minute ride home until I hold her foot (its comforted her since she was little) and she was quiet. We got home and talked about it. She understood she made me and her dad very sad, she wanted to say sorry to her teacher for throwing the clipboard and she was an angel the rest of the night. 

I get a call from the school director today that she bit another kid and then in front of the director, hit a classmate because the classmate touched her paper hanging on the hallway wall (which is against the rules). I told the director we don't believe in corporal punishment and talk to her about how her actions make us sad. She said that our language is mirroring each other. They are having one of two teachers "shadow" her for the rest of the day. 

My MIL (a former preschool teacher) suggested we seek outside help to get ahead of it. Her words were "This escalation concerns me a lot. If she were in my class, I'd be suggesting the same thing. I'm a firm believer in it takes a village. There's nothing wrong with seeking help. As a parent, I wish the resources that are available today were available when you were growing up. Sometimes we need fresh eyes to figure things out". She also suggested having the pedi check her blood sugar next month. 

So sometimes I feel like I am walking on eggshells and go out of my way to make sure a routine isn't messed up - like making sure I pick her up and then we get her brother, etc. I'm wracking my brain trying to figure out what's different - the only other difference is that we've watched Disney movies and now I'm thinking - maybe they are too violent? Where is she getting this from...

Help. 

ETA: other things - I don't think she's getting enough sleep - she typically falls asleep between 8:30 - 9:30 pm and is up at 6:30 pm. She takes a 2 hour nap at school. New brother joined the family in October. More screen time since February. 

[jcrewgirl]

Posting and running since I have a meeting from 2-4 EST. Thanks for any input, ladies.

[jennyinheaven]

Idk jcrewgirl from what you described it sounds pretty typical for this age. DD is nuts sometimes too, like your daughter she knows numbers, letters, colors and shapes. Could she be bored possibly when she is acting out in school? I've noticed DD gets unusually crazy at romp n roll when they are doing things she already knows about. The classes there are separated by age groups she's so she's is grouped with younger 2 year olds. I'm pulling her out of that program at the end of Spring and she will be going to a more challenging pre school environment that I'm hoping will keep her occupied and hopefully curb some of acting out.

[becole]

I can tell you that everything you described has happened at one point or another with my DS1. He is strong willed, down right stubborn, smart, and has the language to lash out verbally. He has stopped hitting as much but he has had tantrums that I would describe as "out of control." He's always been difficult and swings back and forth between completely normal behavior and all out crazy train. He seems to feel emotions deeply- and a wide variety of them. His teachers have told me when he's had trouble keeping his hands to himself but overall they see him as normal.
Her sleep schedule sounds pretty similar to my kid as well.

[lrmrtn]

DS went through a phase at DC where he was hitting and spitting at the other kids. They moved him up to the next room early and that helped a lot. Is that an option for your DD?

DS also has epic tantrums sometimes where he melts down for something as simple as not having the cup he wants. He is more prone to hysterical crying and hiding as far away from us as possible though we've had to carry him out of DC with him resisting sometimes.

Also, maybe your DD is just acting out because she has a new brother? Someone I work with was having similar behavioral problems with her daughter that used be the youngest before the new babies (she had twins) came.

It can't hurt to talk to your pedi about it as they are in a better place to know if it's "normal" or not and make recommendations or referrals.

[emmagk]

If you really think there is something up then seek professional opinions BUT what you describe sounds pretty typical to me. Has you DD always been a calmer child? If so then this is probably just new to you. DS has been an extremely opinionated and stubborn kid since he was 18m. He escalates quickly if he is forced to do something he doesn't want to do and lashes out (hits, throws toys etc...). He's definitely become more emotional as he gets closer to 3.

One thing that has helped us is to be consistent with consequences. If i threaten time out and he does it again then he goes to time out, and now we are at the point that most of the time if i threaten punishment he backs down.

It's also helped to set a timer on my phone if i need him to transition to something else and i know there will be a fight. Like i tell him 'when mummy's phone beeps we have to do xyz' then i set a 2 min timer.

[haykay13]

My DS has been having these kinds of tantrums too. He's also started hitting, kicking and pinching when we've never had those problems before.
I find myself, like you catering to his every whim to avoid the tantrums, try to make sure nothing upsets etc.
I don't have the answers. I've been feeling extremely worn down lately. I feel like I need to go to an intensive parenting workshop with super nanny or something so I can learn how to deal with these behaviors.
We aren't doing corporal punishment either, but there have definitely been multiple times recently (maybe multiple times a day) where I feel like spanking him because I just don't know what else to do.

[athn64]

We had a 20 minute tantrum today because she wanted to wear her shoes to go splash in puddles instead of her boots. She threw them at me. It's tough, she's not easily redirected, and I get frustrated. But it's within the realm of normal toddlerness. Hang in there.

[emmagk]

haykay13, have you tried walking away from him when he acts like that? I've found if i say 'mummy doesn't want to be around you when you behave like this' then walk away he gets upset that i left, then wants me to come back and hugs me and calms down faster.

[becole]

I have a bag full of tricks that I use and I have to pull them out one by one to see which one will work. Typically it's time out, taking a toy away, bribery/ reward, ignoring him, placing him in his room by himself for a few minutes, removing him from restaurant/ store for a talk...
We typically use time outs but sometimes they aren't effective and removal of a toy or removing him from the space is more immediately effective. I'm probably messing him up with always using a different method but sometimes I just need to get through the day.

[lrmrtn]

Similar to becole, our most effective methods are ignoring him if the tantrum happens at home, removing him from the situation (if we are out in public) or threatening to take away something (and following through if needed). If he's resisting something that has to be done, like leaving the house for DC, I'll just pick him up and haul him into the car.

[ksyknelvr73]

I haven't read all the responses yet but this is normal to me. DS1 went through periods of this around 3-4 as well and DS2 is doing the same stuff.

For the most part, I ignore the tantrums. Literally walk away.

For the hitting/biting stuff, we just reiterate over and over that it's not nice and we don't do it, talk about it when calm, etc.

Both my kids have lashed out more whenever a new baby comes too.

[bliz1712]

I'll echo others and say that it sounds pretty typical, especially with a relatively new sibling and lack of sleep. I know for us options has really helped when she's throwing a tantrum. If she's fighting me for an outfit or shoes I give her the option of 2. If she still puts up a fit, then I say "you have until I count to 5 to pick or I'm going to pick". This seems to be working lately. Even as simple as, you either get xyz treat or no treat, you pick. Or simply ignoring what the tantrum is about if it's applicable. EX. last night she just started crying about something with her milk cup, I think it was the lid. So I ignored and eventually she dropped it and started drinking it a little bit later. It sounds like you, your H, and DC are consistent, but that also is key for us.

It really sounds like attention seeking behavior, even if it's bad attention they seek it during huge transitions like a new sibling.

But on the same hand if you suspect it's something more it can't hurt to get her checked out. Better to check and get something caught early on.

[footloose]

Honestly from what you are describing I think it could go either way. She could have some type of behaviour disorder or it could all be chalked up to three year old antics. Only a Doctor or therapist could really say for sure. I was a child and youth worker for many, many years and if you are thinking autism spectrum or something then I would need to have more proof of lack of social cues and rules. She actually sounds very intelligent and that she understands what she wants and it seems to frustrate her that she isn't getting it at that moment.

I think it doesn't help that she has a new sibling and possible some lack of sleep. Being deficit even just a small amount in iron can really affect behaviours. I would try to increase those foods with citrus for best absorption and try to help her have more sleep. Also enlist the help of daycare in coming up with cues for transition at end of day or other trigger times and maybe try positive reinforcement with something she really likes for once you are home.

I hope you can figure out how to help the tantrums soon.

[meggypoo1]

This all sounds so normal to me. We talk about our feelings and hers when she has a meltdown. We tell her that her feelings are normal but xyz is what will help.
The hitting and biting thing.. is she bored?
Also, on the sleep, I think she is getting enough as long as she is napping for 2 hours. My pedi says 11-12 hours for this age including naps. I'll have to find the chart again

[Susan0utLoud]

I'm sorry you're dealing with this. We are, too. I think it's all within the normal range. We saw a marked increase in hitting and kicking when new baby arrived. Just recently he has started throwing things. We really focus on consistency in reaction to his behavior. Kick, hit or throwing gets a 2 minute timeout with a chat after. Every time. No exceptions. Even if we're out of the house.

I think the only difference is that our kids are getting older, I don't believe it's anything you're doing.

I wish I had answers but all I can offer is commiseration.

I fully admit we're in a different place than most as our kiddo is in speech and food therapy. Some of his behavior is truly caused by his inability to communicate with us. But most of it is him being the age he is I think.

[comicSans]

Tantrums, stubbornness, throwing things have all escalated here, but not to the point that you're describing. If her teachers are concerned and thinking it's beyond the norm, I'd take their advice and talk to your pediatrician to, or see out a behavioral specialist. At this age they seem to be on the edge of disaster at all times and anything from not enough sleep to being overwhelmed can push them over, so it could be some simple changes, but you'll need to figure out in her case what underlying things are causing the volatile reactions. I always hear a lot of people taking about behavior linked to diet and significant differences when cutting gluten or dairy or other, so that might be worth looking into. Sorry you're struggling with this. These little people are so complex and tough to guide sometimes.

[scout251]

I would say that all sounds relatively normal also. We certainly have breakdowns and tantrums about seemingly unimportant things. My only thought it, if your mom and the school, who have seen the behavior and can compare it to other children her age, then perhaps there's more to explore. From your description it sounds like typical toddler stuff but maybe if we were seeing it, we might think it's a bit more. I know videoing a tantrum is not the easiest thing but if you get a chance, that might be helpful if you did want to discuss it with a doctor or specialist. They might be able to determine better if they can actually see it. But either way, this age is no joke and most days I find parenting an almost 3 year old to be pretty exhausting.

[Doll15]

C has always been pretty bright as well, she has known her numbers to 20 and her alphabet before 2. She has always been easy to please so as long as we stick to her schedule but from 2.5 on, she has had some epic tantrums. I've had her hit me a couple of times too. She has also had a couple "rabid monkey" instances.

To me it all sounds normal. I am a firm believer of gathering information and then trusting your gut. If you still feel uncomfortable or hat something is off, seek or a professional opinion.

[jcrewgirl]

Thanks everyone. I really appreciate you all chiming in. DH met me at the school today and we talked to her teacher who shadowed her the rest of the day. She also told me that before we arrived some kid wouldn't get off the bus (some playground toy) and she put her hands around his neck! I am mortified and scared. I don't know where she is seeing this - there is no domestic violence going on in our home. The only thing I can think of is watching Little Mermaid and Beauty and the Beast. We only allow those and Mickey Mouse.

We had a brief conference & when I mentioned outside help, her teacher reassured me that at this point, it's not necessary. We need to continue to communicate and reaffirm being kind, not bullying, helping hands vs hitting hands etc. I was so embarrassed. DH and I are so confused and lost. My SIL has her MSW and suggested a few books and websites. I just hate this.

[scout251]

jcrewgirl I'm sorry you are going through this because I'm sure it's so stressful but please try not to take it so personally. Kids do things all the time that they're parents don't approve of. Is it possible she's seeing other kids at school act this way? The shows/movies you mentioned certainly aren't violent.

[jcrewgirl]

Thanks @scout252. I know. It's hard not to take it personally. And she's not doing these things when she's bored. It sounds like she's doing them in anger.

I didn't think they were violent but now that I'm thinking about it there's that huge fight scene at the castle with Gaston and the Beast? I know I'm overthinking things but jesus, strangling a kid?

What's ironic is I just finished Big Little Lies and I'm like "we aren't abusive at all". Wtf.

[becole]

I honestly wouldn't worry about the videos she's watching. I doubt it has any impact. It's more likely other kids or she's just coming up with it on her own.

[scout251]

Do you think she has some unresolved anger about the baby? Have you talked to her about how she feels about him and invited her to share negative emotions too (ex. "I bet it's hard to be a big sister sometimes because DS gets our attention. That would make me pretty mad..."). If it is an anger issue, maybe try giving her alternative ways to express it that are acceptable? Like being able to throw a soft ball at the wall, hitting a punching bag or a big pillow or something? Maybe that would let her get her frustration out without hurting anyone? I've been reading a lot of articles from Janet Lansbury (she has a Facebook page and a website) and I genuinely feel like the information had allowed me to communicate better with DD1. I could also just be talking out of my ass though...