LA Times article on the rise of secular parenting

[iloverunning]

I haven't introduced myself yet, but wanted to share this article/op-Ed from tha LA Times. It discusses the increase of individuals who don't ascribe to any particular religion.

www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-0115-zuckerman-secular-parenting-20150115-story.html

[moidonna]

Interesting article. It is not surprising that children from secular families grow up with moral values, definitely interesting that they grow up more secure in their ideals than children from religious families. Makes sense though.

[Deleted]

The incarceration and crime statistics mentioned were very interesting too.

[things]

It makes me chuckle when people are shocked that heathen children (or heathens in general) can be well-adjusted and ethical individuals. Morality has nothing to do with mythological deities, and some of said deities exhibit highly questionable moral behavior in their respective mythos. I certainly wasn't any more moral when I was a fundamentalist Christian. I just assumed a specific moral code that I [erroneously] believed was Absolute.

[singingsea]

I was just about to post this article. Definitely a good read.

[ryn]

Morality is entirely derived from our sense of empathy, compassion, and justice. It should never be derived from a book based on the morals of ancient dictators. Do the least harm to the fewest people. Make the effort to do good. Do unto others as they would wish done to them. Morality is not hard, and it is not black and white. Religious morality is appalling. "Because God said so" is the most ridiculous foundation for a moral code. If you cannot rationalize or recognize why something benefits or harms people, it is completely nonsensical to label that thing moral or immoral.

[Lrachelle80]

Jan 19, 2015 10:46:00 GMT -5 ryn said:

Morality is entirely derived from our sense of empathy, compassion, and justice. It should never be derived from a book based on the morals of ancient dictators. Do the least harm to the fewest people. Make the effort to do good. Do unto others as they would wish done to them. Morality is not hard, and it is not black and white. Religious morality is appalling. "Because God said so" is the most ridiculous foundation for a moral code. If you cannot rationalize or recognize why something benefits or harms people, it is completely nonsensical to label that thing moral or immoral.

I got into a debate with someone who said I couldn't have morals without God. I almost never debate this subject, but this was playful, and after I said, "I propose I'm actually MORE moral, because not only do I carry many of the same morals, I don't do it because someone else (God) told me to or in fear of retribution from God (being sent to hell) or in hopes of a reward from God (going to heaven). I just do it for myself, because it's the right human thing to do." And she had no argument back. Even though it was more of a joke debate than anything real, it was still interesting.

[ryn]

If you believe that any form of sex outside of a heterosexual marriage is immoral, if you believe that slaughtering other people in the name of your creator is moral, if you believe that forcing a woman to carry a pregnancy resulting from rape to term is moral, if you believe that hitting children to train them to behave is moral, if you believe that teaching children any science that conflicts with your religion is immoral, or if you claim to believe that morality stems from an ancient book but you only accept about half of what that book says as still valid and discard the rest... I think you have a fucked up view of what morality actually is, and you really have no business whatsoever declaring what is or is not OK.

[moidonna]

Jan 19, 2015 16:54:35 GMT -5 privacy said:

I shared this on FB earlier.
My ILs are very worried about our lack of religion. It's pretty much the only source of friction we have. My FIl is a retired pastor and they are both still very involved in the church. We generally just don't discuss religion and I worry about offending them (they are good people and very liberal) but I am glad I can share a neutral piece on my POW.

I have this with my mom to an extent. Honestly, I'm lucky that she isn't super pushy, but I know it bothers her. She has brought up sending the girls to Catholic School and vacation Bible school. I've overheard her discussing Jesus with DD1 when I was in a different room.  I wouldn't really mind the discussion if there wasn't an agenda of sorts behind it.   It doesn't happen all the time, but it does up.  I'm sorry you have that stress with your ILs.

[emmaswan]

In my UU church a few years ago we talked about the book Good Without God (my minister was reading it at the time) and it makes sense. I think people are good at heart, regardless of their religion.

[ryn]

I don't necessarily think *all* people are inherently "good". We are all human. We are all subject to our biology and environments. We are all inherently lacking control over our circumstances of origin. We all have motives to survive and protect ourselves and whomever we care about. But that doesn't always mean "good". I think "good" is the result of the evolution of societies - it allows us to become civilizations rather than being nomadic. Sociopathy and narcissism still exist. There are still plenty of people in the world who care only about what is best for them and rarely consider the needs or wants of others. Many of them, in fact, hide behind religious "morality" to excuse their lack of moral fiber.

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Weinberg

[namastebiotches]

This is great!

[verovladamir]

I think you can point to a few things:
1) Generally, I think if children are raised secular, then later find religion they are not shamed for that by their families. If it is the other way around, they are often guilted, shamed, or even shunned by their families. I think this leads to the higher levels of long-term cohesion mentioned in the article.
2) If your morals are grounded in faith in higher power(s), and that faith is questioned or begins to fall away, the morals attached to it are also, rightly, at question.

[Deleted]

Jan 18, 2015 18:15:06 GMT -5 things said:

It makes me chuckle when people are shocked that heathen children (or heathens in general) can be well-adjusted and ethical individuals. Morality has nothing to do with mythological deities, and some of said deities exhibit highly questionable moral behavior in their respective mythos. I certainly wasn't any more moral when I was a fundamentalist Christian. I just assumed a specific moral code that I [erroneously] believed was Absolute.

Re: supposedly needing eternal threats and rewards to be moral, I give you this:

This is just as silly as if a fish (for which, of course, it is impossible to live out of the water) were to say : if no eternal life is to follow this life in the water, then I will leave the water for the land

Brought to you by Benedict de Spinoza 17th century Dutch apostate Jew. 

[things]

I *heart* Spinoza.

[mommyatty]

I always say my atheist husband is the most "Christian" person I know, if you judge based on what Christianity teaches. He not only gives money to homeless people, he takes time to talk with them and treat them with dignity. He doesn't judge others. He's kind to children and animals. He's honest. He renders unto Caesar that which is Caesar's (we don't even take credit for charitable giving on our taxes because he thinks that's wrong and we give because we can and should, not for a tax break). And yeah, raised atheist by two atheists who are far more loving and kind than my evangelical parents.

I'm confident my kids will be the same.

[iloverunning]

Jan 19, 2015 10:46:00 GMT -5 ryn said:

Morality is entirely derived from our sense of empathy, compassion, and justice. It should never be derived from a book based on the morals of ancient dictators. Do the least harm to the fewest people. Make the effort to do good. Do unto others as they would wish done to them. Morality is not hard, and it is not black and white. Religious morality is appalling. "Because God said so" is the most ridiculous foundation for a moral code. If you cannot rationalize or recognize why something benefits or harms people, it is completely nonsensical to label that thing moral or immoral.

Agreed.  When my DS (4 years old) is having a hard time sharing/cooperating/etc. we will take a moment to try and empathize.  I'll ask "Well, if so-and-so did this to you, how would it make you feel?  How do you think so-and-so feels?"  Nine times out of ten, my DS will then take the initiative to correct his behavior or offer support if he sees a friend needs help.  I can't imagine him only learning to behave because he was told to act that way by a deity.

[MissMusic]

I have long said that if you don't indoctrinate your child, it doesn't mean they'll grow up without morals. That'll only happen if you don't teach them EMPATHY.

I have a MA in Theology. What they deemed as "morally correct" in the Bible has changed, because times have changed (thank goodness). When your doctrine is still trying to teach SOME morals and not others because they are appalling or inconvenient, its time to adjust your thinking. Andplusalso, many people in the Theology field, especially ethics, wouldn't even really be 100% in step with Biblical teachings.

Doing things because they bring less harm to another is not religious. Its just not being an asshole--which may also account for the stats given on crime, etc. Empathy > deity.

[wanderinga]

I haven't read that article yet but I just hd to come down here first and say first of all I am so glad that this board exists and TWO I think I am getting an internet-crush on ryn - every single thing that I have read from you so far are my thoughts exactly, but written much more concisely than I would be able to manage!

[wanderinga]

Okay, now that I have read the article I can comment thoughtfully.

It has always been my view that empathy is, perhaps, the greatest motivator is behaving "morally." Simply treating others how you wish to be treated and trying to understand the reasoning behind others behaviors makes you a more kind, less judgmental person. The issue that I have with many religious people is not at all the fact that they believe in something I do not, it's that they use their belief as a justification to judge others and generally be assholes. I respect others opposing viewpoints but religion places such a hard line in the sand that I often don't receive the same respect in return.

[ryn]

Religious morality:

I think so highly of my personal beliefs on what is right and wrong that I will cite an invisible ultimate authority figure who agrees that my beliefs are objectively moral so I have an excuse for not caring what other people have to say. 

[MissMusic]

Jan 23, 2015 9:56:05 GMT -5 wanderinga said:

Okay, now that I have read the article I can comment thoughtfully.

It has always been my view that empathy is, perhaps, the greatest motivator is behaving "morally." Simply treating others how you wish to be treated and trying to understand the reasoning behind others behaviors makes you a more kind, less judgmental person. The issue that I have with many religious people is not at all the fact that they believe in something I do not, it's that they use their belief as a justification to judge others and generally be assholes. I respect others opposing viewpoints but religion places such a hard line in the sand that I often don't receive the same respect in return.

----------------
There is actually Biblical basis for this: be good to "your own" and be ok to others who disagree, or eff them all together. Thanks, Paul.
The real challenge, esp of Christianity, is to love people who disagree with you or don't love you in return. Thats what its really all about, but people screw this up all the time.
"I love your Christ, I do not like your Christians." -Ghandi

I'm not coming down on other religions; I'm coming down on people who think they are right because they are somehow morally superior...which makes them, um, not right.