Post by longhornwino0907 on Mar 22, 2015 21:42:53 GMT -5
Not quite finished over here. About 2/3 through. But I will say this has been a difficult read for me. I really enjoy the subject matter in general. But it does tend to read like the Bible, so that makes it a more dense read. The emotional triggers have also been hard, especially given our rough IF month this past cycle.
I did enjoy the early aspects of Dinah's relationships with her mothers. I love the idea of listening to their stories and wanting to pass them on because the memories are so important. It struck a chord with me and has made me more motivated to truly listen to my mother, and in particular my grandmothers, because I don't want their memories to fade when they're gone.
I appreciated reading your response, wanderingheart, and agreed with many of the things you noted! I was also raised in the church and am familiar with Biblical account of Jacob and his wives. I appreciated reading this take on the story, as the author made some interesting choices especially in how the wives were depicted - there isn't too much detailed information about Jacob's wives in the Bible. For example, the Biblical record mostly implies that Jacob didn't have any romantic feelings towards Leah and only truly loved Rachel. I liked that Jacob seemed to also love and respect Leah as his wife in The Red Tent. I also liked the author's interpretations of Bilhah and Zilpah's personalities and how all the wives interacted with each other and in relation to Jacob.
Overall, I liked the book. It took me a while to get into it, I think because the story was mostly familiar to me up until everything happened with Dinah and her husband. The rest of the story was more interesting to me because it was new, and I hadn't previously thought about what could have happened after the slaughter at Shechem from Dinah's perspective. After so many terrible and sad things happening to Dinah, I was glad that she finally found some happiness with Benia and her friends in that community.
I was raised in the church, so I went back through and re-read the Biblical account of Dinah before starting the Red Tent. It was interesting to read a different perspective, since the Bible presents it as a rape with her brothers avenging her honor. Jacob and Leah/Rachel's story is pretty well known and so is Joseph's. I enjoyed reading about Dinah's story just because not much is known about her, except for 1 chapter of the Bible.
That being said, this book was hard for me to get through. I loved it, don't get me wrong. But it was difficult reading something that was so different than what I had been raised to know, if that makes sense. I did not like how the book portrayed Joseph or Jacob. I loved getting to see the ever changing relationships between the women, and how they each served each other throughout various life stages. The book was also difficult because of the focus on motherhood and childbearing, which is something I obviously want so badly, but am struggling to have at this point in my life. I get that it was a cultural thing then to emphasize childbearing as the most important thing for a woman to do, but sometimes I feel like that's how our society is still. Maybe that's just my perception of growing up in the church and being surrounded by moms everywhere, but that part of the book was hard for me to digest. I think partly that's because it's something I continue to struggle with in my life, and this book opened up those old wounds. I still loved the book though, despite the triggers for me.
That said, I was happy to see Dinah reach peace and find love again. And that, despite her family "forgetting" of her, that her story lived on.
I was thinking that it was intentional that Joseph and Jacob were portrayed so differently than the Bible portrayed them. What do you think?
I agree that it was intentional. I think a huge part of this is because of the change between the rape and it being a consensual love affair. In order for the murders of all the men in Shechem to have happened, obviously Jacob would need to become a "bad guy" in this version. A man as the Bible describes would never have allowed the mass murder if Dinah wanted to marry Shalem. I feel like Jacob became consumed by his greed and growing power, and Dinah consenting to pre-marital sex and choosing her husband for herself (both HUGE NO-NOs in that time) threatened his power over his family. His sons, likewise, were power hungry and took matters into their own hands when this power struggle was threatened.
As far as Joseph, I feel like he was more passive and laid back than the Bible presents. It was almost like he couldn't make up his mind. I'm not really sure why he was portrayed so differently...I fail to see the purpose of his passiveness.
I enjoyed the book a lot. Initially I had a hard time following all of the characters and had a fear that I would not be able to get into it.
I loved the character of Dinah, and her journey through life. She endured and in the end found peace. The murder of her husband was shocking to me, I considered being done with the story at that point.
The stories of the Dinah's mothers/aunts and how they each played an important role in who she became was very interesting to me. And, the description of their dynamics.
In the end I was glad that when she went "home" at the end of her fathers life that she knew that her tale would live on.
This isn't a book that I would have ever picked to read on my own, but it is one that I have already recommended to a friend.
And what did you think about the ritual/celebration of Dinah getting her period?
I found the rituals and the whole thought of the Red Tent intriguing. Now, men and some women are disgusted with the thought of a period. But in their community/family, it was worth a celebration. The men, while not totally aware of what was going on, did not seem fearful or bothered by the new moon and what it brought. It was all a part of the becoming of a woman. (And, please give me 3 days to sit and do nothing when AF comes to visit!)
I tried to keep an open mind, but it did bother me a bit that they "opened her" to prepare her to be with a man. I had some confusion, because I believe that in the Bible, it is allowed for a woman to be stoned to death if there was not proof of her being a virgin on her wedding night.
Reading these responses makes me realize that I've forgotten so much of the book. I read it years ago. All I remember is the feeling - the feeling of loving the book. I gave it to my mom and grandmother to read after I was done. My grandmother loved it.
I'm going through a time right now with my grandmother's death. I was raised Lutheran but certainly wasn't religious. My grandmother was religious and active in her Lutheran church. Now, oddly, one thing that gives me some comfort is wearing a cross around my neck that was a gift from my grandmother's brother. I feel connected to ...something. I don't know. There's so much to work out in my head.
Clearly I need to go back and read it again now. I'm sorry I can't contribute more to the discussion - I seriously thought I could until I saw the questions!
And what did you think about the ritual/celebration of Dinah getting her period?
Honestly, while I found the idea of a ceremony intriguing, like@shemarie82 said, using the idol to open her up kind of weirded me out. But the ceremony in general is a beautiful idea. It's a big time in a girl's life, and I feel like it should be celebrated to an extent.
I would never have chosen this book on my own, but I'm really glad that I read it. I agree with a lot of what was already said, but I'll add my thoughts anyway.
I grew up reading the Bible, but I purposely didn't read the biblical story before starting this book. I really enjoyed the "untold" story of Dinah. I think my favorite part of the book was when Dinah started helping Rachel with births- I just felt like they really connected.
I thought the concept of the Red Tent was really intriguing. I'm not much of a history buff, but I could see this being real. I was also really interested in the rituals and traditions surrounding a woman's first period. Some of it was a bit disturbing, but I tried to see it through the lens of that society.
To be honest, I kept getting hung up on why there was no mention of God...I think I was expecting this to be more religious than it was. Maybe that doesn't make any sense?
All in all, I would be interested in reading another book by this author, as I liked the writing style.
And what did you think about the ritual/celebration of Dinah getting her period?
Honestly, while I found the idea of a ceremony intriguing, like@shemarie82 said, using the idol to open her up kind of weirded me out. But the ceremony in general is a beautiful idea. It's a big time in a girl's life, and I feel like it should be celebrated to an extent.
Yes! The idol part really disturbed me!!!! but the rest of the ritual and the idea of it was really neat!
I would never have chosen this book on my own, but I'm really glad that I read it. I agree with a lot of what was already said, but I'll add my thoughts anyway.
I grew up reading the Bible, but I purposely didn't read the biblical story before starting this book. I really enjoyed the "untold" story of Dinah. I think my favorite part of the book was when Dinah started helping Rachel with births- I just felt like they really connected.
I thought the concept of the Red Tent was really intriguing. I'm not much of a history buff, but I could see this being real. I was also really interested in the rituals and traditions surrounding a woman's first period. Some of it was a bit disturbing, but I tried to see it through the lens of that society.
To be honest, I kept getting hung up on why there was no mention of God...I think I was expecting this to be more religious than it was. Maybe that doesn't make any sense?
All in all, I would be interested in reading another book by this author, as I liked the writing style.
There were several mention of god(s). The idols that were used in the Red Tent were from the women's gods, and there was much mention of "Jacob's God". To be honest, I kind of tuned that stuff out, but I do know it was in there.
I would never have chosen this book on my own, but I'm really glad that I read it. I agree with a lot of what was already said, but I'll add my thoughts anyway.
I grew up reading the Bible, but I purposely didn't read the biblical story before starting this book. I really enjoyed the "untold" story of Dinah. I think my favorite part of the book was when Dinah started helping Rachel with births- I just felt like they really connected.
I thought the concept of the Red Tent was really intriguing. I'm not much of a history buff, but I could see this being real. I was also really interested in the rituals and traditions surrounding a woman's first period. Some of it was a bit disturbing, but I tried to see it through the lens of that society.
To be honest, I kept getting hung up on why there was no mention of God...I think I was expecting this to be more religious than it was. Maybe that doesn't make any sense?
All in all, I would be interested in reading another book by this author, as I liked the writing style.
There were several mention of god(s). The idols that were used in the Red Tent were from the women's gods, and there was much mention of "Jacob's God". To be honest, I kind of tuned that stuff out, but I do know it was in there.
Yeah- I guess I was just surprised that it wasn't more in your face religious- not just the idols. Not a bad thing, just odd to me since it was inspired by a story in the Bible. Maybe I was just too caught up in the drama of the family that I glazed over that.
There were several mention of god(s). The idols that were used in the Red Tent were from the women's gods, and there was much mention of "Jacob's God". To be honest, I kind of tuned that stuff out, but I do know it was in there.
Yeah- I guess I was just surprised that it wasn't more in your face religious- not just the idols. Not a bad thing, just odd to me since it was inspired by a story in the Bible. Maybe I was just too caught up in the drama of the family that I glazed over that.
I think that it would have been hard for me to be as committed to the characters if it had been in your face religion. It is a story of a Bible character, so I expected it to be that way. I am thankful that it wasn't.
I am not very religious and I had to read some parts a few times to really feel like I understood what was going on... but I liked the book.
I hated Laban and his shady sons. The part about when his wife died and how much it was felt by Joseph and Dinah and yet Laban's sons pick up her body with little regard. Disgusting.
The midwife aspect was interesting to me, I like reading about that in general though! Call the Midwife being one of my favorite book series and shows.
Yeah- I guess I was just surprised that it wasn't more in your face religious- not just the idols. Not a bad thing, just odd to me since it was inspired by a story in the Bible. Maybe I was just too caught up in the drama of the family that I glazed over that.
One of the big things to consider is that the Bible will tell from Jacob's side (El is the same as God, leading to him changing his name to Isra'El/Israel later). Jacob was related to the women distantly, but not from that area. The ladies would have been raised with different beliefs (which would never get mentioned in the Bible due to religious differences and the fact that they were women).
Also, as nobody's mentioned it yet, can I just say how much I despised Laban?
Yes, Laban was terrible! Having been familiar with the Biblical account of this story, Laban was one of the few characters in the Red Tent that actually had a personality similar to what I had expected. In the Bible, Laban is somewhat mean and deceptive, and he was portrayed to be even worse in this book.
Post by onesweetworld on Mar 23, 2015 15:32:16 GMT -5
I am not religious at all. Never went to church growing up or anything. I had no idea this story was religious until I started reading the discussion and it all makes sense now. I did read the description when I was voting on a book and thought I would hate the book so I didn't vote for it. I was dreading reading it because I could careless about the story but it actually wasn't that bad. It was tough for me to get into but overall I didn't hate it.
I liked that they valued their daughters to pass on wisdom. The ritual of becoming a woman was a bit shocking but I liked the idea of a celebration and not a negative thing. I almost threw up during the massacre and had to start the section over again because I thought it was some sort of dream.
Jumbled thoughts, I will come back after I finish the rest of the book.
Post by teenybenoit on Mar 23, 2015 17:16:24 GMT -5
Sorry so late guys, I couldn't get on at work. This book was hard to read, and a joy to read, I have never read the bible and honestly had no idea this was a bible story until I read the interview with the author at the end of my iBook version. The interesting thing was how it made me feel a little less hateful of my period. Lol. It was nice to read that it was honoured and celebrated by women with women, eating cakes and singing songs and painting henna on their hands drinking beer and wine. On the other hand I found it horrific and glorifying child abuse, young girls being married off as soon as they started to bleed, the ritual for Dinah's first period to me was rape. The slave girls running around naked, the priests wife dying at childbirth because she was too young. The miscarriages obviously touched a sore spot since I have had two and am scared that having a baby is never going to happen, understanding Rachel's anguish and sadness, feeling Dinah's loss of her own son not being as close with her because of her mother in law, the fact that she finally found love again and then couldn't have a baby with him...omg...this is my second marriage after a horrible first one, I did everything I could not to get pregnant with my first husband because it never felt right and after all the shit I went through I finally meet the man of my dreams and guess what, no successful pregnancy, just losses...ugh Anyway, phew, taking a breath here...ultimately I think if a book can stir that many emotions then the writer did a good job. I couldn't put it down once I started.
Post by risscaboobs on Mar 23, 2015 18:50:26 GMT -5
Okay, ladies. Starting tomorrow, we would normally begin discussing ideas for next month's book. I loved leading book club, but as I am ku and hopefully won't be TTC again for a while, I feel I should pass on the reigns, though I would still like to participate if that's alright with everyone. If anyone would like to lead from now on, let me know and I can pm the info I have from the few months I've been doing this (tags and previously discussed books).
Until our new leader comes forward, I can continue leading until no longer necessary.
Post by teenybenoit on Mar 23, 2015 19:52:56 GMT -5
I'm not looking to lead as I can not commit the time at the moment but can I make the suggestion that we pick the book that had the second highest vote in last months pole?
I'm not looking to lead as I can not commit the time at the moment but can I make the suggestion that we pick the book that had the second highest vote in last months pole?
We will definitely include that book in the poll. But I think people enjoy discussing and voting every month.
I'm not looking to lead as I can not commit the time at the moment but can I make the suggestion that we pick the book that had the second highest vote in last months pole?
We will definitely include that book in the poll. But I think people enjoy discussing and voting every month.
Yes to voting every month. It's nice to have new options as well.
I am not religious at all. Never went to church growing up or anything. I had no idea this story was religious until I started reading the discussion and it all makes sense now. I did read the description when I was voting on a book and thought I would hate the book so I didn't vote for it. I was dreading reading it because I could careless about the story but it actually wasn't that bad. It was tough for me to get into but overall I didn't hate it.
I liked that they valued their daughters to pass on wisdom. The ritual of becoming a woman was a bit shocking but I liked the idea of a celebration and not a negative thing. I almost threw up during the massacre and had to start the section over again because I thought it was some sort of dream.
Jumbled thoughts, I will come back after I finish the rest of the book.
Yes! I read it then had to re-read it from the beginning because I was like WTF? At first I thought it was a dream or something also until I kept reading. But again, because I didn't know the story from the Bible. So, yea. It was a shock to me.
I'm not looking to lead as I can not commit the time at the moment but can I make the suggestion that we pick the book that had the second highest vote in last months pole?
We will definitely include that book in the poll. But I think people enjoy discussing and voting every month.
Plus, as much as I want to read Still Alice, I've been on the holds list for it for a month and I've hardly moved up the list. Getting a copy of that book will be nearly impossible right now unless you're willing to purchase it. I think it's best to have other options.
So, this book is gorgeously written and I think that Dinah is a hero - and so are her four mothers. I loved all of the girl power bits. However, it's also SO.INCREDIBLY.DISTURBING. There are so many dead babies in this book. And the men are so barbaric - sort of like ISIS today. It's a shame that times haven't changed since, you know, 2,000 BC.
It's also fascinating to me that most of the characters in the book are polytheistic. But I guess that Abraham was the first monotheist, and we are looking at his grandchildren, so that Jacob is in the monotheistic minority. Also, it's a part of the common Biblical theme that God uses very flawed people to do God's work - i.e. passing on the faith.
As the mother of a son, it was also heartbreaking to me when Remose grew up and went to scribe school, which marked the beginning of the end of his relationship with Dinah. They only saw each other a handful of times after that. I am just happy that Anita Diamant cut Dinah and readers a break by sending a wonderful best friend in Meryt and a wonderful husband in Benia to Dinah so that I could relax a little bit. Again, this is a gorgeous book and very well done - but I don't think I can read it again because of all of the incredibly disturbing imagery.
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