{Spoiler}Sansa cries to the servants and they tell Brienne. Brienne like a dumb ass storms the castle or tries to sneak in. Pod somehow gets killed in the process and Brienne gets strung up and flayed. Theon cries in a corner and Sansa goes and prays by the tree because she can't figure out why all this shit happens to her.
Although I can't see Littlefinger being ok with her being dead. In fact I think Littlefinger would flip the fuck out. He waiting for his chance to be warden of the north so he can marry her himself. The little creep.
Ugh I'm really tempted to open housecarder's spoiler...
Do not do it LadyNymeria. Do not open the spoiler.
Sorry If it helps I was just asking about a character from the books who will not be appearing in the show.
Haha, you don't have to apologize.
I'm reading the books although I'm currently only on book 2 so I'm trying to not learned too much about the books before I get to them. About the stuff that's different anyway. I just love the show so I like knowing everything so it makes it tough to be patient! I just need lots and lots of free time to read and I don't have that right now
Okay five pages of comments now here are my thoughts:
I am only mad about the end of the last episode because it happened to Sansa. It didn't happen to her in the books, and now it did. I dont think it will go that way for her. DNW.
Also there are way less rapes in the show than in the book. Am I wrong? I am thinking of the woman who gets raped 100 times after the battle of black water?
I AM NOT DIGGIN the Dorne story line. I do not think it was too complicated in the book, and the deviation in the show is sooo connived and predictable. George wrote an interesting plot with realistic and developed characters. Also I cannot stand Keisha Castle Hughes' face she keeps making (I normally like her) but she is just trying to look tough and coming off as constipated. BLEH DUMB!
What I do like? Tyrion! Also seeing Arya with clean hair was nice
It makes me want to punch her in the face so freaking bad. Can someone just kill her please?
{Spoiler}Sansa cries to the servants and they tell Brienne. Brienne like a dumb ass storms the castle or tries to sneak in. Pod somehow gets killed in the process and Brienne gets strung up and flayed. Theon cries in a corner and Sansa goes and prays by the tree because she can't figure out why all this shit happens to her.
Although I can't see Littlefinger being ok with her being dead. In fact I think Littlefinger would flip the fuck out. He waiting for his chance to be warden of the north so he can marry her himself. The little creep.
Honestly? No. They couldn't. They needed to give Sansa the push she needed to say fuck him and realize he is a psychotic sociopath.
I thought the red wedding and Oberyn's death were just as gruesome (if not more so) to watch. Nevermind Dany's wedding night. They actually made that night more rape-ish than in the books (where it was gentle with no crying).
Agreed. Was it difficult to watch? Yes. But I think it's their way for Sansa to see how bad he really is. Not to mention for how brainwashed Reek is, I think he needs something big/powerful if he's ever going to fight his way back to being Theon.
I disagree. We all knew Ramsey was trouble and seriously fucked up without the rape scene. She could have been clued in without it, too.
rablissful, LadyNymeria, pismoduo, I haven't read the books, and the chapters I have read from them don't convince me GRRM is the Tolkienesque genius he thinks he is. BUT. I think I agree with the XOJane article more than you guys. No one would be critiquing Sansa's rape if it seemed creatively necessary or weren't one of many, many gratuitously awful sex scenes with women that to my knowledge are not in the books. Daenerys weeping during painful sex on her wedding night? Cersei being raped by her former lover next to her son's body? One prostitute vaginally fisting another, who practices faking orgasim, while said fister is having a casual conversation with Little Finger? WHY ARE YOU FISTING SOMEONE DURING NORMAL CONVERSATION? Seriously.
The point here is that the show NEVER returns to these characters to see how they feel about these things, how it changes their interior life, etc. At most, we get calls for vengeance. Most of the time, however, we don't. Daenerys falls in love with Drogo. Cersei moves on in her relationship with Jamie and now he's off saving their kid. That prostitute gets strung up and killed by Joffrey as an illustration that he's a meanie. At most, all we will get from Sansa is revenge. And as the other article said, the Boltons have already done enough shit to her to warrant revenge.
So to me, the point isn't that these characters wouldn't have done terrible things like rape people, but that the show itself doesn't seem to have a good reason for making us watch them happen. Even Arya has been threatened with rape repeatedly. Why? It feels like it's simply so we can be reminded of her lesser status as a woman in this sick storyworld. We never return to these horrors to have an interesting ethical experience with them as viewers. (In contrast, Joan's rape in Mad Men comes back several times and it becomes more about her development as a character than about getting to watch a woman be abused for the pleasure of the viewers.)
GoT is atrociously sexist and racist, and it's not for "historical accuracy." I'm sorry, but it's an imaginary world with dragons, and you could maintain some sort of medieval sexism without constant - again, GRATUITOUS - rape and a bunch of perfectly clean, attractive young women with 3 feet of hair extensions running around braless in skimpy, backless dresses that no woman would have EVER worn before the late 20th century. The only "unattractive" women in the entire show are Walda Frey, the butt of endless fat jokes and Brienne, the butt of endless "man" jokes. The male characters are physically diverse. The female characters may be emotionally diverse, but they are all between 14 and 30 with perfect 21st-century-ideal body types. That's not for historical accuracy, and neither is the endless depiction of their abuse.
Ok, end rant. I love watching GoT, but I have been enraged by this show's depiction of women many times, and I do think a lot of these feminist critiques, such as the one on XOJane, are valid.
Agreed. Was it difficult to watch? Yes. But I think it's their way for Sansa to see how bad he really is. Not to mention for how brainwashed Reek is, I think he needs something big/powerful if he's ever going to fight his way back to being Theon.
I disagree. We all knew Ramsey was trouble and seriously fucked up without the rape scene. She could have been clued in without it, too.
I'm not sure that's true. A lot of people I've talked to and seen comment on articles seemed surprised that Ramsey would do that, given how much he needs Sansa. It seems divided pretty evenly between people who got how fucked up he truly is and people who hadn't quite realized it yet.
I disagree. We all knew Ramsey was trouble and seriously fucked up without the rape scene. She could have been clued in without it, too.
I'm not sure that's true. A lot of people I've talked to and seen comment on articles seemed surprised that Ramsey would do that, given how much he needs Sansa. It seems divided pretty evenly between people who got how fucked up he truly is and people who hadn't quite realized it yet.
Did they miss every torture scene with Theon/Reek last season? Or do they just not think that's fucked up? I don't get it.
I am so surprised to see such vehement defense of depictions of the rape! First of all, it is kind of lazy storytelling to say that a character has to get raped to realize her power or overcome her enemies. Secondly, the debates about rape in this show have been raging among prominent critics and fans since it began, starting with Dany's wedding night scene. I was reading about it before I'd even watched the show. In fact, just a few months ago, I was part of a conversation with 5 dudes who all read the books and they were the ones criticizing the show's use of rape. I'm, not surprisingly, totally with adorebel on this one. Saying "oh, it's fiction, so rape shouldn't piss us off" is a misunderstanding of the role of fiction!
ETA: It is possible to love the show and still be critical about some of the devices it uses, or be disappointed with the way it handles certain themes. We can all agree on that, right?
I'm not sure that's true. A lot of people I've talked to and seen comment on articles seemed surprised that Ramsey would do that, given how much he needs Sansa. It seems divided pretty evenly between people who got how fucked up he truly is and people who hadn't quite realized it yet.
Did they miss every torture scene with Theon/Reek last season? Or do they just not think that's fucked up? I don't get it.
I am so surprised to see such vehement defense of depictions of the rape! First of all, it is kind of lazy storytelling to say that a character has to get raped to realize her power or overcome her enemies. Secondly, the debates about rape in this show have been raging among prominent critics and fans since it began, starting with Dany's wedding night scene. I was reading about it before I'd even watched the show. In fact, just a few months ago, I was part of a conversation with 5 dudes who all read the books and they were the ones criticizing the show's use of rape. I'm, not surprisingly, totally with adorebel on this one. Saying "oh, it's fiction, so rape shouldn't piss us off" is a misunderstanding of the role of fiction!
Yea, I'm not sure how they missed how F'ed up Ramsey is, but I've heard/read enough people make the same point about him needing Sansa that it's clearly not just one or two people who missed it.
I don't think that most of the rapes in this show are meant to help a female character realize her power or overcome her enemies. I sincerely doubt that was the goal here with Ramsey and Sansa - the goal is to finally break Theon enough that he HAS to do something, as well as to demonstrate the depth of Ramsey's depravity and his inability to think past his own immediate need. I think making sure that viewers truly understand his mindset will help make future pieces of the plot line make more sense.
I'm not trying to defend depictions of rape in fiction, exactly. In fact, I feel like Dany's wedding night and Cersei/Jaime last season were unnecessarily skewed toward rape. But in this specific example (Sansa and Ramsey) it really does feel crucial to the overall plot line, rather than just lazy storytelling or deliberate titillation for the sake of titillation.
Did they miss every torture scene with Theon/Reek last season? Or do they just not think that's fucked up? I don't get it.
I am so surprised to see such vehement defense of depictions of the rape! First of all, it is kind of lazy storytelling to say that a character has to get raped to realize her power or overcome her enemies. Secondly, the debates about rape in this show have been raging among prominent critics and fans since it began, starting with Dany's wedding night scene. I was reading about it before I'd even watched the show. In fact, just a few months ago, I was part of a conversation with 5 dudes who all read the books and they were the ones criticizing the show's use of rape. I'm, not surprisingly, totally with adorebel on this one. Saying "oh, it's fiction, so rape shouldn't piss us off" is a misunderstanding of the role of fiction!
Yea, I'm not sure how they missed how F'ed up Ramsey is, but I've heard/read enough people make the same point about him needing Sansa that it's clearly not just one or two people who missed it.
I don't think that most of the rapes in this show are meant to help a female character realize her power or overcome her enemies. I sincerely doubt that was the goal here with Ramsey and Sansa - the goal is to finally break Theon enough that he HAS to do something, as well as to demonstrate the depth of Ramsey's depravity and his inability to think past his own immediate need. I think making sure that viewers truly understand his mindset will help make future pieces of the plot line make more sense.
I'm not trying to defend depictions of rape in fiction, exactly. In fact, I feel like Dany's wedding night and Cersei/Jaime last season were unnecessarily skewed toward rape. But in this specific example (Sansa and Ramsey) it really does feel crucial to the overall plot line, rather than just lazy storytelling or deliberate titillation for the sake of titillation.
Not to mention this rape scene was actually in the book (and WAY worse), whereas Dany and the Cersei/Jamie ones were not.
I have an issue It annoys me when the show has a rape scene not found in the book... But this one was part of the original plotline. There is a specific purpose for it.
I'm not sure that's true. A lot of people I've talked to and seen comment on articles seemed surprised that Ramsey would do that, given how much he needs Sansa. It seems divided pretty evenly between people who got how fucked up he truly is and people who hadn't quite realized it yet.
Did they miss every torture scene with Theon/Reek last season? Or do they just not think that's fucked up? I don't get it.
I am so surprised to see such vehement defense of depictions of the rape! First of all, it is kind of lazy storytelling to say that a character has to get raped to realize her power or overcome her enemies. Secondly, the debates about rape in this show have been raging among prominent critics and fans since it began, starting with Dany's wedding night scene. I was reading about it before I'd even watched the show. In fact, just a few months ago, I was part of a conversation with 5 dudes who all read the books and they were the ones criticizing the show's use of rape. I'm, not surprisingly, totally with adorebel on this one. Saying "oh, it's fiction, so rape shouldn't piss us off" is a misunderstanding of the role of fiction!
ETA: It is possible to love the show and still be critical about some of the devices it uses, or be disappointed with the way it handles certain themes. We can all agree on that, right?
FFS! The show also depicts gruesome scenes of murder and torture, that are used as a plot device. Is that also lazy storytelling?
This is a fictional world loosely based off of medieval life. Until about 100 years ago women had no fucking say in practically anything. Why would you think this show would be any different? That girl has had no say in any of her marriages or in any aspect of her life. Half the time she can't even pick out what she is wearing for the day. She knew that as soon as she was married then she was to submit to her husband for all things. This is the world of GOT. Get the fuck over it and move on!
Did they miss every torture scene with Theon/Reek last season? Or do they just not think that's fucked up? I don't get it.
I am so surprised to see such vehement defense of depictions of the rape! First of all, it is kind of lazy storytelling to say that a character has to get raped to realize her power or overcome her enemies. Secondly, the debates about rape in this show have been raging among prominent critics and fans since it began, starting with Dany's wedding night scene. I was reading about it before I'd even watched the show. In fact, just a few months ago, I was part of a conversation with 5 dudes who all read the books and they were the ones criticizing the show's use of rape. I'm, not surprisingly, totally with adorebel on this one. Saying "oh, it's fiction, so rape shouldn't piss us off" is a misunderstanding of the role of fiction!
ETA: It is possible to love the show and still be critical about some of the devices it uses, or be disappointed with the way it handles certain themes. We can all agree on that, right?
FFS! The show also depicts gruesome scenes of murder and torture, that are used as a plot device. Is that also lazy storytelling?
This is a fictional world loosely based off of medieval life. Until about 100 years ago women had no fucking say in practically anything. Why would you think this show would be any different? That girl has had no say in any of her marriages or in any aspect of her life. Half the time she can't even pick out what she is wearing for the day. She knew that as soon as she was married then she was to submit to her husband for all things. This is the world of GOT. Get the fuck over it and move on!
Hey now. If it is just a TV show, why is everyone so ragey that we are criticizing it? Can we all just calm down and agree to disagree like adults?
Did they miss every torture scene with Theon/Reek last season? Or do they just not think that's fucked up? I don't get it.
I am so surprised to see such vehement defense of depictions of the rape! First of all, it is kind of lazy storytelling to say that a character has to get raped to realize her power or overcome her enemies. Secondly, the debates about rape in this show have been raging among prominent critics and fans since it began, starting with Dany's wedding night scene. I was reading about it before I'd even watched the show. In fact, just a few months ago, I was part of a conversation with 5 dudes who all read the books and they were the ones criticizing the show's use of rape. I'm, not surprisingly, totally with adorebel on this one. Saying "oh, it's fiction, so rape shouldn't piss us off" is a misunderstanding of the role of fiction!
ETA: It is possible to love the show and still be critical about some of the devices it uses, or be disappointed with the way it handles certain themes. We can all agree on that, right?
FFS! The show also depicts gruesome scenes of murder and torture, that are used as a plot device. Is that also lazy storytelling?
This is a fictional world loosely based off of medieval life. Until about 100 years ago women had no fucking say in practically anything. Why would you think this show would be any different? That girl has had no say in any of her marriages or in any aspect of her life. Half the time she can't even pick out what she is wearing for the day. She knew that as soon as she was married then she was to submit to her husband for all things. This is the world of GOT. Get the fuck over it and move on!
FFS! The show also depicts gruesome scenes of murder and torture, that are used as a plot device. Is that also lazy storytelling?
This is a fictional world loosely based off of medieval life. Until about 100 years ago women had no fucking say in practically anything. Why would you think this show would be any different? That girl has had no say in any of her marriages or in any aspect of her life. Half the time she can't even pick out what she is wearing for the day. She knew that as soon as she was married then she was to submit to her husband for all things. This is the world of GOT. Get the fuck over it and move on!
Hey now. If it is just a TV show, why is everyone so ragey that we are criticizing it? Can we all just call down and agree to disagree like adults?
Because saying that people are vehemently defending rape is a little too far.
Knowing these ladies, nobody is defending rape. They are simply trying to explain that it is in this story because that's the way things are in the world of Westeros.
It was a disgusting scene to watch. It made me ill.
There are numerous awful things that happen to both men and women on this show.
Christ, Theon's storyline, I think, was the shittiest of all. He isn't even treated as a human anymore. Where was the outrage over his torture and castration?
Eta: I stayed out if it earlier, but the defending rape comment annoyed me.
FFS! The show also depicts gruesome scenes of murder and torture, that are used as a plot device. Is that also lazy storytelling?
This is a fictional world loosely based off of medieval life. Until about 100 years ago women had no fucking say in practically anything. Why would you think this show would be any different? That girl has had no say in any of her marriages or in any aspect of her life. Half the time she can't even pick out what she is wearing for the day. She knew that as soon as she was married then she was to submit to her husband for all things. This is the world of GOT. Get the fuck over it and move on!
Hey now. If it is just a TV show, why is everyone so ragey that we are criticizing it? Can we all just calm down and agree to disagree like adults?
Edit: typo
Then why bring up an argument that was hashed out hours ago?
This whole thing is so freaking stupid. Why would you watch something that upsets you morally? I understand hate watching shows. I did it with True Blood. But I hated the characters and the plot, NOT the fact that it upset what I believed was acceptable to show on TV. I also didn't care how it portrayed women and I didn't even think about how it bothered me morally. If it did I would stop watching it because that is the only line of defense we have as consumers. If everyone stops watching then the show gets cancelled and all those bad images go away.
Hey now. If it is just a TV show, why is everyone so ragey that we are criticizing it? Can we all just calm down and agree to disagree like adults?
Edit: typo
Then why bring up an argument that was hashed out hours ago?
This whole thing is so freaking stupid. Why would you watch something that upsets you morally? I understand hate watching shows. I did it with True Blood. But I hated the characters and the plot, NOT the fact that it upset what I believed was acceptable to show on TV. I also didn't care how it portrayed women and I didn't even think about how it bothered me morally. If it did I would stop watching it because that is the only line of defense we have as consumers. If everyone stops watching then the show gets cancelled and all those bad images go away.
Oh come on, a couple of hours ago isn't exactly a zombie thread. I was mostly chiming in that this is a very commonly discussed issue and this one xojane article isn't the first to discuss it. I think you are really reading into my comments. I specifically said I think it is possible to watch something and enjoy it and still disagree with it or be made uncomfortable by it. So, agree to disagree. Can we still be friendly?
Hey now. If it is just a TV show, why is everyone so ragey that we are criticizing it? Can we all just call down and agree to disagree like adults?
Because saying that people are vehemently defending rape is a little too far.
Knowing these ladies, nobody is defending rape. They are simply trying to explain that it is in this story because that's the way things are in the world of Westeros.
It was a disgusting scene to watch. It made me ill.
There are numerous awful things that happen to both men and women on this show.
Christ, Theon's storyline, I think, was the shittiest of all. He isn't even treated as a human anymore. Where was the outrage over his torture and castration?
To be fair - shadesofgold wasn't saying we were defending rape in general, but that we were defending this particular depiction of rape. I misread it at first and was about to fly off the handle. Upon reading it again I saw what she meant.
Because saying that people are vehemently defending rape is a little too far.
Knowing these ladies, nobody is defending rape. They are simply trying to explain that it is in this story because that's the way things are in the world of Westeros.
It was a disgusting scene to watch. It made me ill.
There are numerous awful things that happen to both men and women on this show.
Christ, Theon's storyline, I think, was the shittiest of all. He isn't even treated as a human anymore. Where was the outrage over his torture and castration?
To be fair - shadesofgold wasn't saying we were defending rape in general, but that we were defending this particular depiction of rape. I misread it at first and was about to fly off the handle. Upon reading it again I saw what she meant.
I see that now, so thanks for pointing it out.
But what she said still kind of bugs me.
Eta: It bothers me because we aren't defending depictions of rape either, and I don't think it's fair that because some feel that it, unfortunately, fit the story that's being told for all the reasons previously mentioned that we are defending depictions of rape. Still a shitty thing to say.
To be fair - shadesofgold wasn't saying we were defending rape in general, but that we were defending this particular depiction of rape. I misread it at first and was about to fly off the handle. Upon reading it again I saw what she meant.
I see that now, so thanks for pointing it out.
But what she said still kind of bugs me.
I agree with your point, btw. There is a whole lot of violence and terrible things on the show, and it bugs me how there is so much talk about the rape scenes, but less focus on the general violence and gruesome happenings that don't have to do with rape.
shadesofgold, I appreciate you piping up here and seeing where I'm coming from! I was feeling pretty out there with my feels yesterday...
I think what I learned/became most clear to me in this discussion is that some people don't think things like rape/violence always have to be handled in a careful or nuanced way in an action-packed TV show, or they feel the characters can develop just as much by plot changes like avenging themselves as by emotional scenes where they deal with their feelings, or they even think critiquing and discussing social issues vis a vis TV shows/novels/entertainment doesn't matter much in the first place, whereas all these things are really important to me, and probably to you and to mugster (and most teachers, since it's what we do!).
I also totally agree that you can love and watch a show and dislike or be critical of certain aspects of it. If I only watched/read things I already agreed with 100%, I would never grow. I have learned far more from watching and reading things that challenge and frighten and even offend me and talking about why that is with other people than I have from reading things that are easy to handle and/or watching things and not taking their treatment of social issues seriously. Of course, that approach is not for everyone, as many participants in this thread have noted, nor does it have to be. Maybe some people see my position as taking a TV show too seriously, but as you said, "the role of fiction" does matter to me, both on its own terms and in relation to real social issues.
3. When this happens to Not-Sansa in the book, she doesn't grow from it. The character has had a shit life and has zero future without a man to provide for with no family to fall back on.
4. Bad stuff happens to good people in the books, and in life.
5. Maybe Jaime can kill Keisha Castle Hughes with his gold hand while she makes that stupid face.
6. Why do Dornish people have a thick Spanish accent when they speak the same language as everyone else in Westeros? Like people in Spain have an accent because they speak Spanish. Dorne is just over the Mountains from like Old Town and stuff. Are they going to have Portuguese accents in Old Town? What's her face from Volantis even sounded British.
shadesofgold, I appreciate you piping up here and seeing where I'm coming from! I was feeling pretty out there with my feels yesterday...
I think what I learned/became most clear to me in this discussion is that some people don't think things like rape/violence always have to be handled in a careful or nuanced way in an action-packed TV show, or they feel the characters can develop just as much by plot changes like avenging themselves as by emotional scenes where they deal with their feelings, or they even think critiquing and discussing social issues vis a vis TV shows/novels/entertainment doesn't matter much in the first place, whereas all these things are really important to me, and probably to you and to mugster (and most teachers, since it's what we do!).
I also totally agree that you can love and watch a show and dislike or be critical of certain aspects of it. If I only watched/read things I already agreed with 100%, I would never grow. I have learned far more from watching and reading things that challenge and frighten and even offend me and talking about why that is with other people than I have from reading things that are easy to handle and/or watching things and not taking their treatment of social issues seriously. Of course, that approach is not for everyone, as many participants in this thread have noted, nor does it have to be. Maybe some people see my position as taking a TV show too seriously, but as you said, "the role of fiction" does matter to me, both on its own terms and in relation to real social issues.
adorebel, I'm with 100% on this one. The role of fiction matters immensely to me as well and I do not think that you are taking the show too seriously. It takes itself very seriously and while it does not have to be a feminist show or depict a world where women are treated well, it would be nice if rape was not offered up quite so frequently for entertainment and shock value (rather than some more nuanced reasons). I read an interview where the director said that he wanted to show Sansa's agency in consenting to the marriage and its consequences, but then backpedaled and said, well not her rape, but all of the rest. I'm not sure I believe the backpedaling. There was legal marital rape in this country until within the last fifty years. 17th century British common law held that there could not be rape within a marriage because consent to wed was consent to sex and that consent could not be withdrawn. I think the show could do more with the implications of such norms without becoming "feminist" or betraying its world.
Also good fantasy and science fiction have always offered social commentary. Much of the power and pleasure of those genres comes from their ability to paint a different canvas and see how that might change society for better or for worse.
3. When this happens to Not-Sansa in the book, she doesn't grow from it. The character has had a shit life and has zero future without a man to provide for with no family to fall back on.
4. Bad stuff happens to good people in the books, and in life.
5. Maybe Jaime can kill Keisha Castle Hughes with his gold hand while she makes that stupid face.
6. Why do Dornish people have a thick Spanish accent when they speak the same language as everyone else in Westeros? Like people in Spain have an accent because they speak Spanish. Dorne is just over the Mountains from like Old Town and stuff. Are they going to have Portuguese accents in Old Town? What's her face from Volantis even sounded British.
juliayadda, Why do people in England have thick accents? Or people in southern US? Why are there Boston accents? We all speak English so why do we all speak so differently?
Sorry, just playing devil's advocate. It's hard for fantasy shows to make up accents so they have to pull from IRL ones. Even though it is an IRL Spanish accent, in the show I try to just think of it as the Dornish accent. If you listen closely, the northerners have a different accent from those in the capitol as well. Same for those beyond the Wall.
juliayadda, Why do people in England have thick accents? Or people in southern US? Why are there Boston accents? We all speak English so why do we all speak so differently?
Sorry, just playing devil's advocate. It's hard for fantasy shows to make up accents so they have to pull from IRL ones. Even though it is an IRL Spanish accent, in the show I try to just think of it as the Dornish accent. If you listen closely, the northerners have a different accent from those in the capitol as well. Same for those beyond the Wall.
Truth except, the accent of the people in the mainland is less thick than the Dornes? I think it is the fake Spanish of my hated Sandsnakes that is annoying me the most.
It did not bother me at all with the Red Viper last year because that is just his voice!!
I'm glad that some of you have such strong feels for fiction, but you're coming off as very pretentious and judgy that not everyone searches for meaning and a social lesson when watching GoT.
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