Post by coconuthead on Jan 25, 2015 11:38:54 GMT -5
@ladyt so glad your kitty is out of surgery safely! I hope he continues to recover and live a medically uneventful life.
jewels here is a link to the study:http://www.waltham.com/document/nutrition/cat/cat-urinary-tract-health/276/
Scroll down to the segment about dietary moisture. And of course this study is regarding urinary tract health but these findings apply across the board.
Frankly, I am a little surprised that you referred the OP to Dr.Pierson's website but don't seem familiar with the content. Dr.Pierson talks about the water issue throughout her site and is a major proponent of wet over dry. She so links to an abstract regarding the dietary water on her page about urinary tract health. I think the OP would actually benefit from a phone consultation with her, since it is her area of specialty.
As for the note about the money grubbing vets I think that most missed the point I was trying to make. Which was that the OP's vet is ignorant of the nutritional needs of cats because any vet who would throw gasoline on the fire with a dry food diet is either ignorant or money grubbing. (I am leaning towards the former). But yes, money grubbing vets do exist and to exhault the entire profession to sainthood is misguided, in my opinion. Just look at how hard some vets have lobbied against making declawing illegal. If those vets care about feline well being over their paycheck I will eat several hats.
And no, I am sorry Jewels but I cannot agree about the dry food. Besides the fact it is moisture depleted there is also the matter of carbohydrate content. All kibble requires a starchy binder and by it's very nature is carbo loaded, grain free or not. There is zero benefit to any obligate (or functional for that matter) carnivore to consume a carbohydrate heavy diet. 20%, 30%, or god forbid 50% carbohydrate content is a woefully inadequate diet to give a cat. When there are lower carb (meat based) and moisture rich options out there to suit anybodies budget it's pretty puzzling to me why anyone would choose kibble. And I believe that even the most kibble addicted cat can be switched with persistance.
You can pick up frozen rodents anywhere they sell reptile food and supplies, just check the freezer (usually by a cricket bin). Adult mice or small rats are both a good size for a cat. If the store is a reptile speciality store they may even sell frozen baby chicks or quail. You can also buy them online at Hare Today Gone Tomorrow or RodentPro, but you have to buy in bulk to make it worthwhile. I do partially whole prey and partially prey model, the whole prey really takes any guesswork out raw (not that there is much, it's easy) and makes it really easy to ensure the cat is getting everything they need in the perfect proportions.
Eww to frozen rodents, chicks, and quail. There must be a different way. "Honey, could you grab me the ice cream from the freezer? It's right next to the frozen rodents."
Since there are so many knowledgeable lurkers reading this thread - does apple cider vinegar really help cats with uti? I give my girl cat a teaspoon when she starts showing signs and it seems to work, but it could also be the bowl full of tuna water I hide it in.
Eww to frozen rodents, chicks, and quail. There must be a different way. "Honey, could you grab me the ice cream from the freezer? It's right next to the frozen rodents."
right? Vom. If my cat wants to eat rodents, he can go the fuck outside abd hunt one down for himself. #lazypussy
DX: Unexplained, possible Endo. October 2014: Letrozole + Trigger + IUI = BFP!!! Beta #1: 32 Beta #2: 77. Little Miss E born July 9th, 2015 Previously DarcyHermione
DX: Unexplained, possible Endo. October 2014: Letrozole + Trigger + IUI = BFP!!! Beta #1: 32 Beta #2: 77. Little Miss E born July 9th, 2015 Previously DarcyHermione
DX: Unexplained, possible Endo. October 2014: Letrozole + Trigger + IUI = BFP!!! Beta #1: 32 Beta #2: 77. Little Miss E born July 9th, 2015 Previously DarcyHermione
coconuthead I gave that website to OP because I recommend all my feline FLUTD patients to be on a moisture rich diet, so I do know the content, thank you. Medicine is always evolving and nutrition for cats is getting better and better. I thought it was funny that your link was to the Waltham website, which owns Royal Canin, which makes Urinary SO food. You said earlier that you wouldn't read any studies from a pet food company. The actual study you are referring to is here: http:// journals.cambridge.org/abstract_s0007114511001875 and only studied 6 cats and no where did I see it say that all cats on dry food are chronically dehydrated. We can agree to disagree .
"I can't fathom a reason that you'd lie. But people also inject cement and superglue in their asses, so sometimes I'm just at a loss about people's decision-making abilities."-rocksforludo
Post by nanaosaki06 on Jan 26, 2015 0:12:27 GMT -5
We got a water fountain for the cats and dogs when they had urinary issues. They all went on raw food and it's greatly improved everyones health. The cats are much leaner and have no more UTI problems. Dry food is one of the reasons why the #1 killer of cats is kidney failure. Cats are carnivores and their bodies just can't handle grains and veggies like dogs can. They need 100% meat, which is why we switched to raw. The raw also has all the moisture in it, and the cats love their fountain. My vet did help us with the switch to all of this. I do go to an odd vets office. They don't do prescription food, which is why I love them.
TL;DR Hi I'm the crazy animal lady. I baked my dog a birthday cake and make all their dog treats. :/
Eww to frozen rodents, chicks, and quail. There must be a different way. "Honey, could you grab me the ice cream from the freezer? It's right next to the frozen rodents."
My grandmother fed her cat raw liver for every meal. It lived to be 24.
Oh, that is fantastic. This, this is wine. Look at what these idiots are drinking. Look at these dicks! I mean obviously, it's not really delicious, like hot chocolate or Coke, but for wine...brilliant.
coconuthead I gave that website to OP because I recommend all my feline FLUTD patients to be on a moisture rich diet, so I do know the content, thank you. Medicine is always evolving and nutrition for cats is getting better and better. I thought it was funny that your link was to the Waltham website, which owns Royal Canin, which makes Urinary SO food. You said earlier that you wouldn't read any studies from a pet food company. The actual study you are referring to is here: http:// journals.cambridge.org/abstract_s0007114511001875 and only studied 6 cats and no where did I see it say that all cats on dry food are chronically dehydrated. We can agree to disagree .
Hey, I am here. I have had a migraine all day. Now it's finally gone but nobody is awake.
You are right about the study being by the royal canin guys. I think a big downfall of modern scientific research is backing by corporate interests. As you say the sample size is small and it's unlikely we'll see anything new on the subject which might conflict with the profit earnings from the dry prescription food. I would think any scientist, when stumbling upon such a gem would be eager to repeat the experiment on a larger scale, the nature of scientific inquiry demands it. Yet because of the vested interests of the backers it's unlikely to happen.
And here's the other thing about the clinical trials on the prescription foods. They are all comparing A kibble to B kibble. If B kibble has some glucosamine and chondroitin then I am sure you may see an improvement over A kibble which contains no supplements. Nobody is comparing A or B kibbles to a species appropriate raw diet, nor will they because again vested interests. I mean we are talking about adding glucosamine, chondroitin, and fish oil, they don't have to be served up in a media of brewer's rice, corn gluten meal, and soybean mill run.
But I digress. Back on the hydration topic, in a previous post you stated that because of natural thirst drives a cat will make up the water loss in its food by free water consumption. Yet here in this study, small sample size aside, we see that the cats did not in fact make up for the low moisture levels in the food with water consumption because the cats on the moisture rich diets had significantly higher water levels. That coupled with the evidence that urinary tract problems (as well as kidney problems) are quite common in cats on dry diets and not so common in cats on moisture rich meat based diets seems to me a connect the dots scenario.
Anyway I think we can agree to disagree, as you said, and I think I've taken up plenty of space on this thread.
For those of you curious about the mice: there are many different styles of raw feeding and feeding whole prey, such as mice, is the least common method. There are commercially available raw patties or grinds which in no way resemble the animal from which they were derived, recipes for homemade grinds, and "prey model" in which animal parts are assembled to replicate an entire prey animal (10% raw bone, 10% secreting organ of which 5% is liver, and 80% meat). But no, it doesn't bother me to have a domestic mouse carcass, guaranteed free of disease and parasites, humanely euthanized with CO2, and sealed in plastic, next to my ice cream or peas.
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