Head Transplants (Body Transplants?) Available 2017

[risscaboobs]

Sept 13, 2015 21:23:03 GMT -5 @wallflwr926 said:

Sept 13, 2015 20:40:49 GMT -5 SheilaTheTank said:

.......

All shows have titled episodes

Ok. I'm sorry. What I meant to say is why do you know the episode titles of Buffy the Vampire Slayer?

The real question is why wouldn't she know this? lol

Buffy for lyfe!

About the OP.... um... I seriously don't see how they expect this to work. At all.

[♪♫choppinbroccoli♫♪]

Sept 13, 2015 20:28:04 GMT -5 @littleliverpill said:

Sept 13, 2015 18:49:20 GMT -5 mosdub said:

During the procedure, the donor and patient will each have their head sliced off their body in a super-fast procedure. The transplanted parts will then be stuck together with glue and stitches.

So basically...

LOL. God, that's perfect.

[k3am]

I have conflicting feelings about this. But at the end of the day.. it boils down to this. We recently found out that there's a high likelihood that DD is going to need brain surgery within the next 2 or so years, the notion of it is terrifying and amazing all at once.

And it wouldn't be possible at all if there weren't doctors driven to pushing the boundaries of what's considered normal, acceptable, etc. A lot of the time the knowledge gained in a specific procedure, even if it fails, can be utilized in other circumstances and create huge medical gains.

[physiomeg]

Regarding the OP, I highly doubt that this will have a positive outcome. People with any injury to the spinal cord (penetrating, bruising, lack of blood flow, whatever else can happen) have serious and often permanent loss of function. Any injury up high in the neck will likely cause loss of the ability to breath on your own, leaving you dependent on a mechanical ventilator. Unless these doctors have found some way to regenerate the spinal cord (and if they have, why are they not helping millions with spinal cord injury around the world??), this man will end up without any true use of that new body. Essentially he'll be in the same boat as before.

That being said, if he's been informed off all the risks and still wants to proceed, more power to him. I'm also shocked that they would be able to find a consenting donor (sounds like they may not have if it is the body of a prisoner).


Regarding Buffy, those who haven't watched Buffy enough to know the episode titles are missing out. Buzzfeed has an article ranking every single episode of Buffy from worst to best - it was the cause of heated debates in my household.

[getzystark]

Isn't this why Walt Disney supposedly had his head frozen?

[k3am]

Sept 14, 2015 13:54:10 GMT -5 starbuck27 said:

Sept 14, 2015 11:16:12 GMT -5 k3am said:

I have conflicting feelings about this. But at the end of the day.. it boils down to this. We recently found out that there's a high likelihood that DD is going to need brain surgery within the next 2 or so years, the notion of it is terrifying and amazing all at once.

And it wouldn't be possible at all if there weren't doctors driven to pushing the boundaries of what's considered normal, acceptable, etc. A lot of the time the knowledge gained in a specific procedure, even if it fails, can be utilized in other circumstances and create huge medical gains.

I am really sorry to hear this about your daughter, and I hope she is ok. Will be thinking of you and your family.

With regards to your second paragraph: I don't want to put words in your mouth or assume anything, and am perhaps reading to much into your phrasing and how you said it could be ok to push what is "acceptable." To me, I am reading this as pushing medical ethics. Can you explain more your meaning?

IMO, yes, pushing boundaries in science can yield amazing results, but I think how the data are generated and whether or not the research is carried out in an ethical manner is extremely important. To me, it's not enough that the research may one day do great things, and I worry that this doctor is taking advantage of someone who is desperately ill and frightened for the sake of his own misguided research.

ETA: Not to mention the potential ethical issues related to the "donor."

I wasn't thinking in terms of ethics, so much as social norms. DaVinci was well known for his anatomical sketches and dissections, was one of the first to propose that the heart had four chambers vs. two, and it's likely he relied on grave robbers to complete his investigations. And because he wasn't a physician, all of these activities were illegal, and socially unacceptable. History is littered with these cases. 

Assuming willing parties, which the article can only speculate, I'm not entirely against it. 

[housecarder]

I still am curious as to why people think this is ethically wrong? I doubt they will use a donor body of a prisoner in such a high profile case. That issue aside, why would it be unethical to try this if everyone involved knows the risks and is willing to take the chance?

[housecarder]

Also it probably won't be as hard as you'd think to get a donor body, especially with this first case. People love to be involved with something this big.
There are people who are lining up to donate their bodies to that artist/sculptor that preserves and molds corpses. He even freeze dries some and slices them into paper thin segments that you can buy at the gift shop of his studio warehouse.

[k3am]

Sept 14, 2015 15:36:52 GMT -5 starbuck27 said:

I see what you're saying, but I think we are really talking about the same thing whether you call it "social norms" or "ethics."

And I still disagree on the spirit of your argument. We shouldn't slice through ethics in the name of expediency in scientific progress. We would have arrived at the 4-chambered heart - and whether or not DaVinci broke laws is irrelevant to me.

Laws governing conduct medical research have evolved for the better, I think. It'd be like if some company was "pushing boundaries" and violating ethics in a way that hurt people and/or violated patient rights. So in a few years no one would give a shit about what happened to them because, you know, progress? I'm a little horrified by that.

While similar, I view social norms and ethics as somewhat different. Ethics have, in general, taken perception of more permanence, while social norms are more fluid and evolving, and much of the time vary from culture to culture. 

As I said previously, if all parties are willing (which I can only assume in some radical hypothetical, since it's impossible to know unless you're literally the donor or the recipient), I have no problem with this. If either parties, donor or recipient are unwilling, the obviously, it's a problem. There's a lot of rabbit holes you have to journey down - how do you determine the standard of determining "willingness"? Who has the right to say that a medically fragile/suffering man is able to consent to being willing? Etc. Etc. There's so many details that I can't and don't have the ability to think of, but in a vacuum? Yeah, I'm cool with it. 

[rablissful]

Sept 14, 2015 15:47:40 GMT -5 housecarder said:

Also it probably won't be as hard as you'd think to get a donor body, especially with this first case. People love to be involved with something this big.
There are people who are lining up to donate their bodies to that artist/sculptor that preserves and molds corpses. He even freeze dries some and slices them into paper thin segments that you can buy at the gift shop of his studio warehouse.

Are you talking about the artist that does the Body World exhibits?

I took my students to see it and it was AMAZING.

Edit to add pictures.

Warning, spoiler is graphic

SPOILER: Click to show

[SheilaTheTank]

Sept 13, 2015 20:51:23 GMT -5 housecarder said:

Sept 13, 2015 20:35:10 GMT -5 SheilaTheTank said:

Is anyone else reminded of the Some Assembly Required episode of Buffy?

Also, this is just ethically wrong, on soooooooo many levels.

Just out of curiosity, what do you find ethically wrong about it? Ethically I see it as no different than any other organ transplant in the early stages. I'm sure they've explained to him that being the first, they can't guarantee or even predict all possible outcomes. From the interviews with him I've seen, he still thinks its better than beign trapped in a body that is slowly wasting away.

Just saw this now. 

Given that the general consensus is that the donor body will probably be an unwilling participant, I find that morally objectionable. If however they find someone who donated their body to science, and they used that, then I wouldn't be so opposed. However finding a donor body that didn't experience some sort of trauma, cancer, or other genetic condition that would have caused it to die in the first place are slim to none. Using a body that died of old age isn't feasible either because the body would not be able to be regenerated. The more I read this, the more it becomes apparent that they have to use a living donor body. I just don't see how someone could willingly submit to decapitation. 

[britta]

Sept 14, 2015 15:38:20 GMT -5 housecarder said:

I still am curious as to why people think this is ethically wrong? I doubt they will use a donor body of a prisoner in such a high profile case. That issue aside, why would it be unethical to try this if everyone involved knows the risks and is willing to take the chance?

If everyone gives their informed consent, I don't think it is.

[SheilaTheTank]

Sept 13, 2015 21:23:03 GMT -5 @wallflwr926 said:

Sept 13, 2015 20:40:49 GMT -5 SheilaTheTank said:

.......

All shows have titled episodes

Ok. I'm sorry. What I meant to say is why do you know the episode titles of Buffy the Vampire Slayer?

Because I am that awesome. *hair flip*

[britta]

Sept 14, 2015 17:05:33 GMT -5 SheilaTheTank said:

Sept 13, 2015 20:51:23 GMT -5 housecarder said:

Just out of curiosity, what do you find ethically wrong about it? Ethically I see it as no different than any other organ transplant in the early stages. I'm sure they've explained to him that being the first, they can't guarantee or even predict all possible outcomes. From the interviews with him I've seen, he still thinks its better than beign trapped in a body that is slowly wasting away.

Just saw this now. 

Given that the general consensus is that the donor body will probably be an unwilling participant, I find that morally objectionable. If however they find someone who donated their body to science, and they used that, then I wouldn't be so opposed. However finding a donor body that didn't experience some sort of trauma, cancer, or other genetic condition that would have caused it to die in the first place are slim to none. Using a body that died of old age isn't feasible either because the body would not be able to be regenerated. The more I read this, the more it becomes apparent that they have to use a living donor body. I just don't see how someone could willingly submit to decapitation. 

It would have to be a patient who is declared legally brain dead. And again, I personally find it highly unlikely that any next of kin or family member would consent to it.

And even then, knowing how solid organ transplants work, I highly doubt that the surgery would be successful given the crazy long artificial perfusion time that would be required of both the donor body and the recipient head.

[pismoduo]

Sept 14, 2015 17:05:33 GMT -5 SheilaTheTank said:

Sept 13, 2015 20:51:23 GMT -5 housecarder said:

Just out of curiosity, what do you find ethically wrong about it? Ethically I see it as no different than any other organ transplant in the early stages. I'm sure they've explained to him that being the first, they can't guarantee or even predict all possible outcomes. From the interviews with him I've seen, he still thinks its better than beign trapped in a body that is slowly wasting away.

Just saw this now. 

Given that the general consensus is that the donor body will probably be an unwilling participant, I find that morally objectionable. If however they find someone who donated their body to science, and they used that, then I wouldn't be so opposed. However finding a donor body that didn't experience some sort of trauma, cancer, or other genetic condition that would have caused it to die in the first place are slim to none. Using a body that died of old age isn't feasible either because the body would not be able to be regenerated. The more I read this, the more it becomes apparent that they have to use a living donor body. I just don't see how someone could willingly submit to decapitation. 

The more I read about this, the more I am convinced that this ^ is exactly why they're doing it in China, a country that isn't exactly known for its human rights standards.

[SheilaTheTank]

Sept 14, 2015 17:09:36 GMT -5 britta said:

Sept 14, 2015 17:05:33 GMT -5 SheilaTheTank said:

Just saw this now. 

Given that the general consensus is that the donor body will probably be an unwilling participant, I find that morally objectionable. If however they find someone who donated their body to science, and they used that, then I wouldn't be so opposed. However finding a donor body that didn't experience some sort of trauma, cancer, or other genetic condition that would have caused it to die in the first place are slim to none. Using a body that died of old age isn't feasible either because the body would not be able to be regenerated. The more I read this, the more it becomes apparent that they have to use a living donor body. I just don't see how someone could willingly submit to decapitation. 

It would have to be a patient who is declared legally brain dead. And again, I personally find it highly unlikely that any next of kin or family member would consent to it.

And even then, knowing how solid organ transplants work, I highly doubt that the surgery would be successful given the crazy long artificial perfusion time that would be required of both the donor body and the recipient head.

The criteria would have to be very specific as well and that person would basically have to die in a very close vicinity. Given how quickly nerves degenerate, you wouldn't be able to ship the body. On top of that you need to find a body with the correct anatomy (male vs. female) and relative age and size of the person you are transplanting the head of. I mean if you identify as a 50 year old man, it would be difficult to transfer your head onto a 20 year old female's body. 

I think they should focus more on trying to reverse the effects of this man's genetic disorder then perform a highly controversial, possibly unethical, Frankenstein procedure. 

[SheilaTheTank]

Sept 14, 2015 18:32:55 GMT -5 @pineappleoranges said:

Race would really become an issue with this.

I was thinking the same thing. It adds to the long list of criteria. Also would "perfect" bodies become a premium? It just opens up a pandora's box of ethical questions. 

[SheilaTheTank]

Sept 14, 2015 18:57:45 GMT -5 @pineappleoranges said:

Sept 14, 2015 18:36:25 GMT -5 SheilaTheTank said:

I was thinking the same thing. It adds to the long list of criteria. Also would "perfect" bodies become a premium? It just opens up a pandora's box of ethical questions. 

Eventually one ethnicity has a shortage and then the black market pops up and start kidnapping people of this ethnic group.

The next Hollywood Blockbuster. 

[Girlymama79]

Sept 14, 2015 18:36:25 GMT -5 SheilaTheTank said:

Sept 14, 2015 18:32:55 GMT -5 @pineappleoranges said:

Race would really become an issue with this.

I was thinking the same thing. It adds to the long list of criteria. Also would "perfect" bodies become a premium? It just opens up a pandora's box of ethical questions. 

Can I get a Megan fox looking body please thanks.

This is too creepy.

[setsuna17]

Sept 14, 2015 16:24:39 GMT -5 rablissful said:

Sept 14, 2015 15:47:40 GMT -5 housecarder said:

Also it probably won't be as hard as you'd think to get a donor body, especially with this first case. People love to be involved with something this big.
There are people who are lining up to donate their bodies to that artist/sculptor that preserves and molds corpses. He even freeze dries some and slices them into paper thin segments that you can buy at the gift shop of his studio warehouse.

Are you talking about the artist that does the Body World exhibits?

I took my students to see it and it was AMAZING.

Edit to add pictures.

Warning, spoiler is graphic

SPOILER: Click to show

This is the one that was controversial for using prisoner's bodies, isn't it?

[setsuna17]

Sept 15, 2015 7:35:01 GMT -5 starbuck27 said:

Sept 15, 2015 7:05:03 GMT -5 setsuna17 said:

This is the one that was controversial for using prisoner's bodies, isn't it?

I thought that was Bodies.

Ah, it could be.

[setsuna17]

No Google says that one had controversy over bodies from China too.

[dontstopbelievin]

I'm not quite on board with this especially since I don't understand how one would get a willing donor body. Or how a sane person would say "sure, guillotine my head and glue it on someone else". However, I am fascinated by the mixed results they received with dogs and monkeys. I really want to know more about the dogs and monkeys.

[rablissful]

Sept 15, 2015 9:35:05 GMT -5 starbuck27 said:

Sept 15, 2015 7:57:24 GMT -5 setsuna17 said:

No Google says that one had controversy over bodies from China too.

Oh man! I wonder how many more have those issues...

Probably all of them.

[housecarder]

Sept 14, 2015 16:24:39 GMT -5 rablissful said:

Sept 14, 2015 15:47:40 GMT -5 housecarder said:

Also it probably won't be as hard as you'd think to get a donor body, especially with this first case. People love to be involved with something this big.
There are people who are lining up to donate their bodies to that artist/sculptor that preserves and molds corpses. He even freeze dries some and slices them into paper thin segments that you can buy at the gift shop of his studio warehouse.

Are you talking about the artist that does the Body World exhibits?

I took my students to see it and it was AMAZING.

Edit to add pictures.

Warning, spoiler is graphic

SPOILER: Click to show

Yes that is it. Gunther von Hagens is the artist's name. I guess his museum is pretty controversial, but all his bodies are donors. I watched a segement about him once and he said that he has people who have written it into their wills that they want their bodies to go to him when they die.