WWN15D? NBR.

[littleredfish]

I was going to ask STM+ but anybody can have an opinion.

DD1 is going through a phase of defiance. Nothing major and I suspect it's partially because of DS's arrival. Combative on every direction we give, telling little lies, and sneaking food are the main elements. The combativeness we seem to be working on by changing our wording and tone when we tell her to do things. But the other 2 are more difficult.

Her fibs don't always reflect a situation where she is trying to avoid trouble, she'll just say things that aren't true. The other day she even came in and told me something then went out of the room and told DH what she said to me, almost like she was bragging about getting away with fibbing to me (obviously sharing her pride with the wrong person).

The stealing food is another weird one, she'll even steal food she knows she can have if she just asks. I just like to know when there is food out because of DD2 and the dogs. I don't want DD2 to get her hands on a food she could choke on and I don't want the dogs unsupervised with the kids and food even though they've never done anything ever, I've worked with animals my whole adult life and know the consequences of even just a misunderstanding. Also she hides the evidence so I find old food and it's gross. And like I said, it's not just treats like candy because we don't really keep that around but even fruit or bread or yogurt which would be fine if she just asked! DH refuses to lock away food. We have child locks but she can open the cupboard ones. She mainly wakes up early and steals the food while we're still in bed, but it's happened mid day too.

Any tips on how to curb these 2 behaviours? We've started with increasing punishments because just talking to her wasn't changing anything or getting through. Like this morning she stole peanut butter so we did a 10min time out and she can't watch her favorite show today (the 10min timeout was because she took the PB on a butter knife and she's not to touch knives so that was a 2 in 1 punishment).

She's a very sensitive kid and cries at the time and seems like she gets it, and we explain why and everything but then she does it again and again (4yos, amiright?) it's seriously frustrating.

[flutterfly88]

I think it's very much a stage which she is at. Figuring out about lies and truth, real and pretend and trying to develop more independence. I would say to continue to hold your boundaries and have clear expectations. For the food, could you set up an area for her to eat inwhere the dogs cannot get to her and give her a cupboard or shelf where "safe" foods are that she can access independently when she's hungry? That way you an try and curb her defiance, while giving her some independence that she craves? Also, maybe get her a child safe knife so that she can be safe while still being independent? (And put a lock on the other knives?)

Also she may be looking for attention so trying to find a few minutes a day or a special hour a week where just she and YH or you do something with her to give her focused, positive attention? Hard I know, with little ones whose needs are so much more immediate.

Oh and I lurk on parenting, and there was just a post about this. Lots of ladies there had good advice!

[littleredfish]

Since it's worse in the morning, we discussed giving her the opportunity to make her own breakfast by setting up a cupboard with foods she could take with the condition that she eat it at the table, not in her room or the living room so she is up from the dogs.

I just grapple with giving her more independence when she seems to take every inch and push it to the next mile. I'm not sure if I should just go for it or if I should wait for some more consistent good behaviour and reinforce it with that, telling her that it's because she has shown we can trust her?

Side bar on preparing her own breakfast. Would 4yo be too young for a child to use a simple appliance like a toaster? She loves waffles and toast and I feel they could be less messy than her pouring her own milk in cereal, but it's an appliance with an (albeit super minimal) chance for her to burn herself or start a fire. That's maybe a side post? At what age do you trust your kids with these things?

[whatsit]

I think flutterfly had some great ideas. I was going to suggest some special one on one time with her as well. It might be attention seeking behaviour and this way she has some of her own but not as a reward. Just because.

I like the idea of her own breakfast cupboard but setting guidelines for it. A bit of independence but still within set parameters.

Have you gotten her to help clean up the food when you find it? Maybe if she sees how much it smells or the mess it makes she will be better about clean up too?

My opinion on the toaster fwiw... I think it'd be something that you could show her how to use but only when you're in the room. Again the independence but with boundaries.

[sunfrogger88]

sassypantzz any help here? Your DD is the same age

[sunfrogger88]

I have no advice but want to send you hugs.

[flutterfly88]

4 seems a little young to use a toaster unsupervised, IMO. I think if you choose to give her things to stretch her independence, I would introduce them more out of the blue, so that it's not initially tied to bad behaviour. Just a "hey, daddy and I think you're big enough to ...". And if later in it becomes a problem, where she's still pushing boundaries, then it gets taken away.

[sassypantzz]

Oooof.. yea that is a lot. My DD is about the same age, but literally acts 35 most days. She thrives the best when she understands. So a lot of my issues with her are very quickly solved By a few solid, long, truthful conversations. I have never dealt with the food stealing, however she has been making her own lunches and breakfasts for at least a year if not more. She uses the toaster, but again she's incredibly responsible and doesn't push rules in general once she understands why they are in place.

My DD also craves acceptance, so when she started in the fibbing zone, she didn't get in trouble per se, but I would say things like "That's not fun. It's not cool to lie and we don't lie here" and then I would continue on whatever light conversation we may have been having. I never harped on it but it gave her no reaction other than it not being ok.

Kids are hard! Good luck!!!!!

[littleredfish]

whatsit we have gotten her to clean it up, but now she just tries to hide it better. I found cheese slice wrappers in her pillow case last week.

sassypantzz that's what's most frustrating I think. She was the easiest baby, no terrible 2's or 3's really. Just an easy going kid, and now all of this at once. That's why I think it's a little coincidental to be happening when the baby arrives. I'm also wondering if she's having a hard time with no friends yet from the move where she used to go out and play a few days a week with our neighbors kid who was the same age. It makes it hard to crack down on her when we've never really had to before.

[samelly]

I have a four year old too and holy crap sometimes she is so frustrating. I don't have the specific issues you have but I deal with other issues that I just don't know how handle sometimes. It's just an age where they really start to test boundaries and try to gain control.

For the food issues, I wouldn't want to lock away food because I think if you treat food that way, it can create issues down the road. Maybe you could find a more positive approach. Like maybe there could be a shelf in the fridge that has healthy snacks that are just for her that she can have at any time but she needs to let you know when she has them.

Have you explained to her that the food can be a hazard for her siblings and the dogs? So that's why mommy needs to see when she is eating so that she can clean up after to make sure everything is safe? That has been helpful for me with explaining why certain toys need to be put away - she doesn't want her brother to choke so she keeps small toys in her room.

[littleredfish]

She knows the dogs aren't allowed near her food, and we had to tell her about her sister when we caught her taking food into their bedroom and sharing it with her.

I think I've got DH on board for a shelf of her own portioned, healthy snacks she can take on her own. Now it's just getting her on board with telling us about her food. We're still debating if we should wait for more consistent honest behaviour or just cut right to the new cupboard.

[leviosa]

I bet it's all related to your new LO. It is likely a phase of behavior that will fade in the coming months. Honestly, the best thing you can do is decide on a punishment for each thing and stay consistent even when you're super busy and it's the last thing you can give up a precious second for.

Maybe use something she really loves as a reward and only let her have it at the end of the day when she hasn't demonstrated these behaviors.

[leviosa]

I find reward based discipline can be very effective when done right. I use a point system for my 14 yo. He doesn't get any privileges unless he earns them with his points. It's been a great tool to help curb his disrespectful tone when he speaks to me.

Anyways, we are talking 4 not 14 but I think the reward based system can be effective at that age too.

[pearlvirus]

My older will be 3 in a few weeks, so we're not quite there but she's always been very independent and I would never describe her as easy or easygoing, so we've had to develop strategies pretty early.

I agree with others that those sound like attention seeking behaviors. And also agree talking through it with her directly could help a lot. I would add that IMO punishment will not help. I would tell her calmly (and briefly) why what she did was wrong and move on. Giving her (even negative) attention will only perpetuate the behavior. I also agree with giving her some more independence, a snack cupboard with very firm boundaries sounds like a great idea to me.

[pearlvirus]

Oh and I wouldn't worry at all about the lying at this point. That sound like she is just experimenting with reality. I would tell her why it's not good to be untruthful and leave it at that.... Amp up Boy Who Cried Wolf type story reading?