Sibling Rivalry Question

[junebug060609]

Maybe rivalry isn't the right word, but it's the closest I can think of at the moment.

I know it's relatively normal for his age, NT or not, to be pushy with a younger sibling.  He's going up to her and randomly pushing/pulling her down though. Even when she's not into his things. I think some of it is attention seeking, if I get after him he smiles.

I don't know how to address it with him. Obviously it isn't ok to be pushing/pulling people down, and his teacher at the IEP meeting yesterday mentioned he'd been doing so with kids in class as well.  She described it there as he wants to interact with them, but does so by pushing/pulling which they find off-putting and they freak out.  Gently correcting him doesn't seem to work. Time outs are a joke (he literally smiles and laughs).  I can't really completely ignore it if he's hurting baby sister. They've had me at the end of my rope this morning. Him pushing/pulling/kneeing her in the back (not hard, but its the principle)...and of course she's recently learned that the louder and more dramatically she screams the more likely we are to intervene (even when he's not actually done anything, I've totally busted her for crying wolf).

The only time I've gotten a reaction out of him besides smiles and laughter was when I yelled at him this morning (not my proudest moment).  I suspect though that the reaction was that I scared him, which makes me feel awful.

Thoughts?  How can I get the message across to him that this behavior isn't ok? 

 

[hopecounts]

If it is attention seeking then address it but give it minimal attention.
If he pushes/pulls/etc little sis he gets to go hang out by himself for 3 minutes in his room (extreme baby proof it if necessary) while you play with baby sister.
Make his behavior ineffective, then when the 3 minutes are up work on how to play nicely with little sis.
Try to 'catch him being good' and give him attention when he is being gentle or playing nicely.
Also perhaps they can work on teaching him to respect 'stop' with a hand out and teach the other kids to use that.
We had an issue in the Fall with a boy in DD's CSS class being over enthusiastic in trying to hug her or get her attention so they taught DD to put her hand out and say 'stop' and taught him to stop when she did that, it took a good bit of work but it clicked for them both and smoothed things out. I don't know what the ratios are or what kind of program he is in but this might be something that could be used to help him interact better with peers.

[mrsbuttinski]

Mar 4, 2015 8:07:42 GMT -5 junebug060609 said:

Maybe rivalry isn't the right word, but it's the closest I can think of at the moment.

I know it's relatively normal for his age, NT or not, to be pushy with a younger sibling.  He's going up to her and randomly pushing/pulling her down though. Even when she's not into his things. I think some of it is attention seeking, if I get after him he smiles.

It could be attention seeking. Kids with ASD are often dysfunctional around the ability to parse the emotional content of an interaction so that negative attention and consequences seem desirable. 

The other piece is that poor ToM means he probably doesn't "get" that his sister is a sentient being with her own feelings and thoughts. You may have to teach this.

I don't know how to address it with him. Obviously it isn't ok to be pushing/pulling people down, and his teacher at the IEP meeting yesterday mentioned he'd been doing so with kids in class as well.  She described it there as he wants to interact with them, but does so by pushing/pulling which they find off-putting and they freak out. 

OK, so IEP meeting yesterday. Teacher has a concern that DS wants to interact but treats his peers like inanimate objects. Where's the IEP goal around that and how can you globalize the skills being taught in your home? Are they doing Social Stories to teach the expected behavior with classmates? Are they doing a MGW Social Thinking curriculum to teach him how his behavior makes other people feel and as a result how they treat him?

Gently correcting him doesn't seem to work. Time outs are a joke (he literally smiles and laughs).  I can't really completely ignore it if he's hurting baby sister. They've had me at the end of my rope this morning. Him pushing/pulling/kneeing her in the back (not hard, but its the principle)...and of course she's recently learned that the louder and more dramatically she screams the more likely we are to intervene (even when he's not actually done anything, I've totally busted her for crying wolf).

This kind of makes me feel bad. I had a mentally ill and behaviorally challenged sibling at home growing up. It's hard to be a sibling in such a situation when parents "normalize" behavior. Yeah, even typically kids can be rough, but they're amenable to learning better behavior. The frequency, duration and intensity thing applies here as well. She's a 10 month old baby who is entitled to be and feel safe in her home. Her crying wolf might be a proactive bid to feel secure rather than straight up manipulation. 

Most of my friends who had a young DC on spectrum separated their children unless they were able to directly supervise during rough patches of aggression, not respecting boundaries and just not getting along. I get that this isn't what you envisioned as a mom-to-be, but it might be for the best for now. Things may get worse as she approaches him in terms of social and emotional maturity; he's old enough to be aware that she's going to pass him and there could be some skirmishes around who is the leader. However, once she's safely beyond him emotionally, things should calm down as a function of her understanding.

The only time I've gotten a reaction out of him besides smiles and laughter was when I yelled at him this morning (not my proudest moment).  I suspect though that the reaction was that I scared him, which makes me feel awful.

He should be scared. He needs to learn what he's doing impacts others. So while you feel badly, this isnt all bad.

Thoughts?  How can I get the message across to him that this behavior isn't ok? 

I'd talk with his behaviorist if you have one. I'd also touch base with the school to see how they address it and whether that is working in that setting.

 

[KC thepouchh8r]

My dd started doing this not too long ago. It generally happens when she is trying to initiate socialization with another kid and she doesn't intuitively think to say "hey Jane want to play?" Her teachers are replacing the behavior with putting a hand on someone's shoulder vs a push. It's helping but it's a slow process. We have the reverse where my oldest is the typical one so when she does this to him he rewards her with tickle play/wrestling. Sigh.

[junebug060609]

Mar 4, 2015 8:59:59 GMT -5 mrsbuttinski said:

Mar 4, 2015 8:07:42 GMT -5 junebug060609 said:

Maybe rivalry isn't the right word, but it's the closest I can think of at the moment.

I know it's relatively normal for his age, NT or not, to be pushy with a younger sibling.  He's going up to her and randomly pushing/pulling her down though. Even when she's not into his things. I think some of it is attention seeking, if I get after him he smiles.

It could be attention seeking. Kids with ASD are often dysfunctional around the ability to parse the emotional content of an interaction so that negative attention and consequences seem desirable. 

The other piece is that poor ToM means he probably doesn't "get" that his sister is a sentient being with her own feelings and thoughts. You may have to teach this.

I really think that it is attention seeking.  He doesn't seem to care if he gets negative attention as long as he gets some attention.  If he doesn't get attention, he keeps doing it or amps it up more until he does. 

How do I teach him that she has thoughts and feelings of her own?   

I don't know how to address it with him. Obviously it isn't ok to be pushing/pulling people down, and his teacher at the IEP meeting yesterday mentioned he'd been doing so with kids in class as well.  She described it there as he wants to interact with them, but does so by pushing/pulling which they find off-putting and they freak out. 

OK, so IEP meeting yesterday. Teacher has a concern that DS wants to interact but treats his peers like inanimate objects. Where's the IEP goal around that and how can you globalize the skills being taught in your home? Are they doing Social Stories to teach the expected behavior with classmates? Are they doing a MGW Social Thinking curriculum to teach him how his behavior makes other people feel and as a result how they treat him?

Teacher is working with him in the classroom on it.  I also asked her today (didn't think of it yesterday) how I can work it in at home as well.  They aren't doing social stories there.  I don't know what the MGW Social Thinking curriculum is yet.

Gently correcting him doesn't seem to work. Time outs are a joke (he literally smiles and laughs).  I can't really completely ignore it if he's hurting baby sister. They've had me at the end of my rope this morning. Him pushing/pulling/kneeing her in the back (not hard, but its the principle)...and of course she's recently learned that the louder and more dramatically she screams the more likely we are to intervene (even when he's not actually done anything, I've totally busted her for crying wolf).

This kind of makes me feel bad. I had a mentally ill and behaviorally challenged sibling at home growing up. It's hard to be a sibling in such a situation when parents "normalize" behavior. Yeah, even typically kids can be rough, but they're amenable to learning better behavior. The frequency, duration and intensity thing applies here as well. She's a 10 month old baby who is entitled to be and feel safe in her home. Her crying wolf might be a proactive bid to feel secure rather than straight up manipulation. 

Just because I've noticed her crying out before he does anything doesn't mean I haven't still removed her from the situation.  I have to be honest with you, I'm kind of pissed off as it feels like you implied that I don't care if she feels safe, or that I'm not listening to her cries.  I very much do care, and I am listening to them.  What I was trying to say was that not every time she cries out is one that he's done something...if that makes sense.  Sometimes he's just walked in her general direction.  I agree that those times may be a proactive bid to feel secure, and I still pick her up and move her, but at those times there's nothing DS has done, which was the point I was trying to make.  I'm very interested in hearing about your experiences with a growing up as her having I want her to have as normal an experience growing up as one can with a sibling on the spectrum.   Valid point about the F, D & I, I'll be mindful of that.  Right now things haven't crossed what I remember with my brothers (all of us NT), even when my youngest brother was very young (he's 6 years younger, so I have a good memory of how things were.  He and my other brother are about the same age difference as DD and DS).
Most of my friends who had a young DC on spectrum separated their children unless they were able to directly supervise during rough patches of aggression, not respecting boundaries and just not getting along. I get that this isn't what you envisioned as a mom-to-be, but it might be for the best for now. Things may get worse as she approaches him in terms of social and emotional maturity; he's old enough to be aware that she's going to pass him and there could be some skirmishes around who is the leader. However, once she's safely beyond him emotionally, things should calm down as a function of her understanding.

I do what I can with this, but we don't have the best set up for them to both be in the main living area and be separate.  She's too young to be on her own in her room, and he will only last a few minutes in his on his own.  His behaviors decrease when he gets 'mommy & DS' time and increase when DD needs me more (ie teething, etc). ...yet another reason I think it's attention seeking behavior. What I typically end up doing is bringing her over with me while he plays (if the cause of their spat is her trying to get into his toys) or having her be in her high chair if I'm doing something like making dinner.  Sometimes he gets Thomas time in his room if things get really bad.  As she gets older, I'd like to work more with them learning to play together.  She's actually starting to surpass him in some social senses now.  Bittersweet as a parent.  So proud of both of them, but it really brings it home how different the experience is with him.

The only time I've gotten a reaction out of him besides smiles and laughter was when I yelled at him this morning (not my proudest moment).  I suspect though that the reaction was that I scared him, which makes me feel awful.

He should be scared. He needs to learn what he's doing impacts others. So while you feel badly, this isnt all bad.
Well, that's good I suppose.  I felt terrible at the time though.  I still do.

Thoughts?  How can I get the message across to him that this behavior isn't ok? 

I'd talk with his behaviorist if you have one. I'd also touch base with the school to see how they address it and whether that is working in that setting.

 I just sent an email to his teacher asking this exact thing.

[junebug060609]

Mar 4, 2015 8:29:35 GMT -5 hopecounts said:

If it is attention seeking then address it but give it minimal attention.
If he pushes/pulls/etc little sis he gets to go hang out by himself for 3 minutes in his room (extreme baby proof it if necessary) while you play with baby sister.
Make his behavior ineffective, then when the 3 minutes are up work on how to play nicely with little sis.
Try to 'catch him being good' and give him attention when he is being gentle or playing nicely.
Also perhaps they can work on teaching him to respect 'stop' with a hand out and teach the other kids to use that.
We had an issue in the Fall with a boy in DD's CSS class being over enthusiastic in trying to hug her or get her attention so they taught DD to put her hand out and say 'stop' and taught him to stop when she did that, it took a good bit of work but it clicked for them both and smoothed things out. I don't know what the ratios are or what kind of program he is in but this might be something that could be used to help him interact better with peers.

This seems mostly doable for us.  His room is very much baby proofed and a few minutes is about his limit in there by day on his own.   
I definitely praise him and such when I catch him being good with her (see my avatar ).  He can be very gentle and sweet at times.  
Thank you for the suggestion with peers as well.

[kmc2]

Junebug060609, I could have written your post myself. I just want you to know that you aren't alone in dealing with this and I'm following this to see what others have to say. I wish I had something else to add, but just trying to offer some support and let you know I'm right there with you in dealing with this. The only difference is that my DS does not display any of these behaviors at school. Other than that, even the way you responded to what others have said is exactly as I would have wanted to as well. Honestly, when I read you've busted your daughter crying wolf, I laughed out loud because its exactly how I would describe what mine does. I think its almost critical to keep a sense of humor in these situations because if you don't, you'll be crying all the time (or at least I know I would.)

[mrsbuttinski]

junebug060609 Avatar
5 hours ago junebug060609 said:


It could be attention seeking. Kids with ASD are often dysfunctional around the ability to parse the emotional content of an interaction so that negative attention and consequences seem desirable.

The other piece is that poor ToM means he probably doesn't "get" that his sister is a sentient being with her own feelings and thoughts. You may have to teach this.

I really think that it is attention seeking. He doesn't seem to care if he gets negative attention as long as he gets some attention. If he doesn't get attention, he keeps doing it or amps it up more until he does.

I wonder if you could meet that need for attention proactively. Not sure if this will work for your DS, but sometimes focusing lavish amounts of attention on DS met his need and dialed back attention seeking. Maybe you can try to focus on him one:one while your DD naps so he feels attended to and will dial back the attention seeking.

The other option is to lavish attention on the victim, so that the consequence for his behavior backfires.

How do I teach him that she has thoughts and feelings of her own?

The MGW Superflex touches in this. Talk to his SLP about what she's using. You can also just keep talking about it. If he's not in a place developmentally to learn this, you might want to create a Social Story about how you expect him to play with his sister. You could also do some basic Floortime techniques for teaching him how to play because he may need instruction around that. When DS was younger, we did Floortime for playskills- an hour nightly one:one. It might be useful if you did part of the time just the two of you and then while the "lesson" is fresh, have your DD join you.

This is the Floortime Book-

www.amazon.com/Engaging-Autism-Floortime-Approach-Communicate/dp/0738210943

I don't know how to address it with him. Obviously it isn't ok to be pushing/pulling people down, and his teacher at the IEP meeting yesterday mentioned he'd been doing so with kids in class as well. She described it there as he wants to interact with them, but does so by pushing/pulling which they find off-putting and they freak out.

Teacher is working with him in the classroom on it. I also asked her today (didn't think of it yesterday) how I can work it in at home as well. They aren't doing social stories there. I don't know what the MGW Social Thinking curriculum is yet.

I hope they have some ideas. Ask the SLP what sort of social skills curriculum they're using- she might be a good resource for ideas.

Gently correcting him doesn't seem to work. Time outs are a joke (he literally smiles and laughs). I can't really completely ignore it if he's hurting baby sister. They've had me at the end of my rope this morning. Him pushing/pulling/kneeing her in the back (not hard, but its the principle)...and of course she's recently learned that the louder and more dramatically she screams the more likely we are to intervene (even when he's not actually done anything, I've totally busted her for crying wolf).

This kind of makes me feel bad. I had a mentally ill and behaviorally challenged sibling at home growing up. It's hard to be a sibling in such a situation when parents "normalize" behavior. Yeah, even typically kids can be rough, but they're amenable to learning better behavior. The frequency, duration and intensity thing applies here as well. She's a 10 month old baby who is entitled to be and feel safe in her home. Her crying wolf might be a proactive bid to feel secure rather than straight up manipulation.

Just because I've noticed her crying out before he does anything doesn't mean I haven't still removed her from the situation. I have to be honest with you, I'm kind of pissed off as it feels like you implied that I don't care if she feels safe, or that I'm not listening to her cries.

You said crying wolf. Not me. That brings along the notion of ignoring a "false cry for help". It the very core of the fable from which the expression is taken. If he's rough, I can see why she anticipates the potential for being hurt and cries.

I very much do care, and I am listening to them. What I was trying to say was that not every time she cries out is one that he's done something...if that makes sense. Sometimes he's just walked in her general direction.

She may be afraid of him. Or she may be doing it as a bid for attention if he's the kind of kid who sucks all the oxygen out of a room.

I agree that those times may be a proactive bid to feel secure, and I still pick her up and move her, but at those times there's nothing DS has done, which was the point I was trying to make.

It's hard because past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior. She doesn't trust him. So you have to teach him to behave in a manner where she can let her guard down or they'll never have a good relationship.

I'm very interested in hearing about your experiences with a growing up as her having I want her to have as normal an experience growing up as one can with a sibling on the spectrum. Valid point about the F, D & I, I'll be mindful of that. Right now things haven't crossed what I remember with my brothers (all of us NT), even when my youngest brother was very young (he's 6 years younger, so I have a good memory of how things were. He and my other brother are about the same age difference as DD and DS).

One of the things you can do is acknowledge differences and talk about the strengths and weaknesses each has as they get older. This means sharing the dx with both. I like this book for school aged kids-

www.amazon.com/Autism-Through-Sisters-Eyes-High-Functioning/dp/1885477716

I have a friend whose son sees the author. This mom was encouraged to create a separate social place for her DD by sending her to a different school so that her brother's behaviors would not reflect on her and so that she would never be called to help deal with his behaviors as I often was.

Most of my friends who had a young DC on spectrum separated their children unless they were able to directly supervise during rough patches of aggression, not respecting boundaries and just not getting along. I get that this isn't what you envisioned as a mom-to-be, but it might be for the best for now. Things may get worse as she approaches him in terms of social and emotional maturity; he's old enough to be aware that she's going to pass him and there could be some skirmishes around who is the leader. However, once she's safely beyond him emotionally, things should calm down as a function of her understanding.

I do what I can with this, but we don't have the best set up for them to both be in the main living area and be separate. She's too young to be on her own in her room, and he will only last a few minutes in his on his own. His behaviors decrease when he gets 'mommy & DS' time and increase when DD needs me more (ie teething, etc). ...yet another reason I think it's attention seeking behavior. What I typically end up doing is bringing her over with me while he plays (if the cause of their spat is her trying to get into his toys) or having her be in her high chair if I'm doing something like making dinner. Sometimes he gets Thomas time in his room if things get really bad. As she gets older, I'd like to work more with them learning to play together. She's actually starting to surpass him in some social senses now. Bittersweet as a parent. So proud of both of them, but it really brings it home how different the experience is with him.

It might make sense to allow him to pick a couple of things that are just his and make a big point of keeping her away from them, while other stuff must be shared. My one friend insisted the kid who didn't want to share keep those toys in his/her room which is a good strategy for sharing/boundaries. They each had special toys they could only use in their rooms.

The only time I've gotten a reaction out of him besides smiles and laughter was when I yelled at him this morning (not my proudest moment). I suspect though that the reaction was that I scared him, which makes me feel awful.

He should be scared. He needs to learn what he's doing impacts others. So while you feel badly, this isnt all bad.
Well, that's good I suppose. I felt terrible at the time though. I still do.

Thoughts? How can I get the message across to him that this behavior isn't ok?

If his receptive language is decent, keep telling him positive things you expect to see., try to say "no" and "don't" less. Eventually he'll get it. In time they'll both be older and more able to be left alone together

I'd talk with his behaviorist if you have one. I'd also touch base with the school to see how they address it and whether that is working in that setting.

I just sent an email to his teacher asking this exact thing.

[hopecounts]

MGW Social Thinking
We're reading these books with DD they are very good for working on some of the TOM, others have feelings and thoughts stuff.

[akafred]

There is a wonderful book not written specifically for SN kids but could probably be adapted for them called "Siblings Without Rivalry."

[junebug060609]

Mar 4, 2015 14:06:15 GMT -5 mrsbuttinski said:

junebug060609 Avatar
5 hours ago junebug060609 said:


It could be attention seeking. Kids with ASD are often dysfunctional around the ability to parse the emotional content of an interaction so that negative attention and consequences seem desirable.

The other piece is that poor ToM means he probably doesn't "get" that his sister is a sentient being with her own feelings and thoughts. You may have to teach this.

I really think that it is attention seeking. He doesn't seem to care if he gets negative attention as long as he gets some attention. If he doesn't get attention, he keeps doing it or amps it up more until he does.

I wonder if you could meet that need for attention proactively. Not sure if this will work for your DS, but sometimes focusing lavish amounts of attention on DS met his need and dialed back attention seeking. Maybe you can try to focus on him one:one while your DD naps so he feels attended to and will dial back the attention seeking. That's exactly what I do.  When I see him doing good behavior, I make sure to comment/praise him.  When he's home and she's napping, that's "Mommy & DS Time" and we do activities that we can't do as easily when she's awake.  When I'm able to do that, it makes a huge difference.  Today was not one of those days, however.  She took a nap, a great one even....but he was at school.  The rest of the day she was a hot mess with teething.  SUPER clingy to me and fussing all day long.  Obviously there's going to be days like this, but it makes things extra hard with DS and often leaves me frazzled like I was when I wrote the OP. 

The other option is to lavish attention on the victim, so that the consequence for his behavior backfires. I asked his ABA what they'd recommend, and that's sort of what they suggested.  In a nutshell she said to ignore it completely.  Grab DD and get her out of there if she's not safe, but don't give attention to the bad behavior...and keep on pointing out the good stuff he does.
How do I teach him that she has thoughts and feelings of her own?

The MGW Superflex touches in this. Talk to his SLP about what she's using. You can also just keep talking about it. If he's not in a place developmentally to learn this, you might want to create a Social Story about how you expect him to play with his sister. You could also do some basic Floortime techniques for teaching him how to play because he may need instruction around that. When DS was younger, we did Floortime for playskills- an hour nightly one:one. It might be useful if you did part of the time just the two of you and then while the "lesson" is fresh, have your DD join you. I like the idea of an hour nightly 1:1...it isn't going to happen though.  I won't have another adult here to be with DD half the summer as DH will be at sea for weeks at a time.  I might be able to do some of this during her naptime, but I want there to be some fun involved in "Mommy and DS Time".
This is the Floortime Book-

www.amazon.com/Engaging-Autism-Floortime-Approach-Communicate/dp/0738210943

I don't know how to address it with him. Obviously it isn't ok to be pushing/pulling people down, and his teacher at the IEP meeting yesterday mentioned he'd been doing so with kids in class as well. She described it there as he wants to interact with them, but does so by pushing/pulling which they find off-putting and they freak out.

Teacher is working with him in the classroom on it. I also asked her today (didn't think of it yesterday) how I can work it in at home as well. They aren't doing social stories there. I don't know what the MGW Social Thinking curriculum is yet.

I hope they have some ideas. Ask the SLP what sort of social skills curriculum they're using- she might be a good resource for ideas.  I will

Gently correcting him doesn't seem to work. Time outs are a joke (he literally smiles and laughs). I can't really completely ignore it if he's hurting baby sister. They've had me at the end of my rope this morning. Him pushing/pulling/kneeing her in the back (not hard, but its the principle)...and of course she's recently learned that the louder and more dramatically she screams the more likely we are to intervene (even when he's not actually done anything, I've totally busted her for crying wolf).

This kind of makes me feel bad. I had a mentally ill and behaviorally challenged sibling at home growing up. It's hard to be a sibling in such a situation when parents "normalize" behavior. Yeah, even typically kids can be rough, but they're amenable to learning better behavior. The frequency, duration and intensity thing applies here as well. She's a 10 month old baby who is entitled to be and feel safe in her home. Her crying wolf might be a proactive bid to feel secure rather than straight up manipulation.

Just because I've noticed her crying out before he does anything doesn't mean I haven't still removed her from the situation. I have to be honest with you, I'm kind of pissed off as it feels like you implied that I don't care if she feels safe, or that I'm not listening to her cries.

You said crying wolf. Not me. That brings along the notion of ignoring a "false cry for help". It the very core of the fable from which the expression is taken. If he's rough, I can see why she anticipates the potential for being hurt and cries.  That may very well be the case.  I was watching for it before, but I'm being more vigilant now.

 I very much do care, and I am listening to them. What I was trying to say was that not every time she cries out is one that he's done something...if that makes sense. Sometimes he's just walked in her general direction.

She may be afraid of him. Or she may be doing it as a bid for attention if he's the kind of kid who sucks all the oxygen out of a room. If anything it's a fear or annoyance (sometimes he'll pull her down from a stand every time she pulls up and she, understandably, gets frustrated).  She generally demands more attention...both with basic infant needs and also she seeks out my interactions.  [Interestingly, she has noticed he doesn't react like others do to her.  She called out to him, he didn't react, and she kind of cocked her head as if to say, "huh?" ]  When he demands more attention is when he gets rambunctious.  He's been a furniture climber as of late, for example.  Pretty sure him doing that is a mix of being a high energy 3yo who was pent up for two weeks of snow days...but I do think the attention seeking is part of it.  

I agree that those times may be a proactive bid to feel secure, and I still pick her up and move her, but at those times there's nothing DS has done, which was the point I was trying to make.

It's hard because past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior. She doesn't trust him. So you have to teach him to behave in a manner where she can let her guard down or they'll never have a good relationship. That's exactly what I want to do.  Teach him how to behave more appropriately.  I can see that benefiting not only their relationship, but also benefiting him a lot down the road.

  I'm very interested in hearing about your experiences with a growing up as her having I want her to have as normal an experience growing up as one can with a sibling on the spectrum. Valid point about the F, D & I, I'll be mindful of that. Right now things haven't crossed what I remember with my brothers (all of us NT), even when my youngest brother was very young (he's 6 years younger, so I have a good memory of how things were. He and my other brother are about the same age difference as DD and DS).

One of the things you can do is acknowledge differences and talk about the strengths and weaknesses each has as they get older. This means sharing the dx with both. We talk openly about the dx at home.  They'll both be growing up knowing. I like this book for school aged kids-

www.amazon.com/Autism-Through-Sisters-Eyes-High-Functioning/dp/1885477716

I have a friend whose son sees the author. This mom was encouraged to create a separate social place for her DD by sending her to a different school so that her brother's behaviors would not reflect on her and so that she would never be called to help deal with his behaviors as I often was. We're years away from the separate school thing, but I'll tuck that idea into my toolbox for down the road. 

Most of my friends who had a young DC on spectrum separated their children unless they were able to directly supervise during rough patches of aggression, not respecting boundaries and just not getting along. I get that this isn't what you envisioned as a mom-to-be, but it might be for the best for now. Things may get worse as she approaches him in terms of social and emotional maturity; he's old enough to be aware that she's going to pass him and there could be some skirmishes around who is the leader. However, once she's safely beyond him emotionally, things should calm down as a function of her understanding.

I do what I can with this, but we don't have the best set up for them to both be in the main living area and be separate. She's too young to be on her own in her room, and he will only last a few minutes in his on his own. His behaviors decrease when he gets 'mommy & DS' time and increase when DD needs me more (ie teething, etc). ...yet another reason I think it's attention seeking behavior. What I typically end up doing is bringing her over with me while he plays (if the cause of their spat is her trying to get into his toys) or having her be in her high chair if I'm doing something like making dinner. Sometimes he gets Thomas time in his room if things get really bad. As she gets older, I'd like to work more with them learning to play together. She's actually starting to surpass him in some social senses now. Bittersweet as a parent. So proud of both of them, but it really brings it home how different the experience is with him.

It might make sense to allow him to pick a couple of things that are just his and make a big point of keeping her away from them, while other stuff must be shared. My one friend insisted the kid who didn't want to share keep those toys in his/her room which is a good strategy for sharing/boundaries. They each had special toys they could only use in their rooms. I've contemplated that.  The concern though is that the main toy in question, his train table, is really loud if he scrambles the trains on it (it's hollow plastic).  If he were to play with it at, say, 4am [when he woke up today] he'd wake the whole house up.  I might bring his wooden tracks in there instead...but honestly we have those set up pretty out of the way in the main room and she doesn't get into them much. 

The only time I've gotten a reaction out of him besides smiles and laughter was when I yelled at him this morning (not my proudest moment). I suspect though that the reaction was that I scared him, which makes me feel awful.

He should be scared. He needs to learn what he's doing impacts others. So while you feel badly, this isnt all bad.
Well, that's good I suppose. I felt terrible at the time though. I still do.

Thoughts? How can I get the message across to him that this behavior isn't ok?

If his receptive language is decent, keep telling him positive things you expect to see., try to say "no" and "don't" less. Eventually he'll get it. In time they'll both be older and more able to be left alone together I'll keep trying with this.  I do it already, but I'll keep at it.  Thanks for the encouragement.  Today was a helluva day and hearing he'll likely get it eventually is what I needed.  It will be a challenge to say 'no' and 'don't' less, but I'll try to.

I'd talk with his behaviorist if you have one. I'd also touch base with the school to see how they address it and whether that is working in that setting.

I just sent an email to his teacher asking this exact thing. Sorry if the formatting got wonky...

[junebug060609]

Mar 4, 2015 14:10:01 GMT -5 hopecounts said:

MGW Social Thinking
We're reading these books with DD they are very good for working on some of the TOM, others have feelings and thoughts stuff.

Is he too young for social stories? I noticed the items on the link were for Ages 4+. He's an immature 3. I'd imagine they could be adapted for him, but I was just curious if was more a school age thing typically.

[hopecounts]

Perhaps.
Geared toward the age where a kid would be on a school setting most likely hence the 4+ and verbally able to follow the story.
You would probably be better off making your own social story about being gentle and maybe a separate one about getting attention.

[mrsbuttinski]

Re: Social Stories.

They're a trademarked product. Accept no generics or ready-mades. He may be old enough to get something from a Social Story. Basically they're a riff on the positive parenting approach of telling a kid what you want them to do rather than defaulting to "no" all the time. The illustrations serve as a multisensory element to help teach. He is on the young side, but remember the Social Stories concept was created for children with ASD- so a certain emotional and receptive language processing delays are assumed.

A few moms I know illustrated their Social Stories with actual photographs of their child complying with the behaviors they wanted to see. A few others download illustrations and let their child color the pictures to make it more "personalized".

junebug said:

I like the idea of an hour nightly 1:1...it isn't going to happen though. I won't have another adult here to be with DD half the summer as DH will be at sea for weeks at a time. I might be able to do some of this during her naptime, but I want there to be some fun involved in "Mommy and DS Time".

There's no reason why an hour long Floortime session couldn't mostly be fun. He might resist you sabotaging play a bit, but it seems like he's highly motivated to be with you so use that to your advantage. It'll be easier to do this now while your DD still naps regularly.

LOL, I once posed a similar question to DS's psych about perhaps "doing too much therapy" and not enough fun, to which he sort of rolled his eyes and said something along the lines of he can have fun once he's been socialized. If he isn't socialized, he's not going to have fun going forward. I think the actual term he used was "housebroken".

[hopecounts]

We use homemade social stories with DD a lot, I typically take pictures and drop them into a word doc and write the story at 3 when we started (with the help of her SLP) we kept the words very short, as she has progressed the words have increased but still keeping it under 12 per page.
1 pic = 1 page.
She had a 15 page one for WDW that worked great, she even scripted it a time or two while we were there in the appropriate situations so she clearly made the connection.

[junebug060609]

Mar 5, 2015 8:45:26 GMT -5 mrsbuttinski said:

Re: Social Stories.

They're a trademarked product. Accept no generics or ready-mades. He may be old enough to get something from a Social Story. Basically they're a riff on the positive parenting approach of telling a kid what you want them to do rather than defaulting to "no" all the time. The illustrations serve as a multisensory element to help teach. He is on the young side, but remember the Social Stories concept was created for children with ASD- so a certain emotional and receptive language processing delays are assumed. Valid point.  He's nearly 3.5, so even if they are aimed at 4's, he's not that far off that now.  He might do ok with it...if I can hold his attention long enough to get through it.  Do they make Social Stories in Thomas the Train? (Joking, sort of...that's what holds his interest these days).

A few moms I know illustrated their Social Stories with actual photographs of their child complying with the behaviors they wanted to see. A few others download illustrations and let their child color the pictures to make it more "personalized". 

junebug said:

I like the idea of an hour nightly 1:1...it isn't going to happen though. I won't have another adult here to be with DD half the summer as DH will be at sea for weeks at a time. I might be able to do some of this during her naptime, but I want there to be some fun involved in "Mommy and DS Time".

There's no reason why an hour long Floortime session couldn't mostly be fun. He might resist you sabotaging play a bit, but it seems like he's highly motivated to be with you so use that to your advantage. It'll be easier to do this now while your DD still naps regularly. 

LOL, I once posed a similar question to DS's psych about perhaps "doing too much therapy" and not enough fun, to which he sort of rolled his eyes and said something along the lines of he can have fun once he's been socialized. If he isn't socialized, he's not going to have fun going forward. I think the actual term he used was "housebroken".  Another valid point and part of the reason I'm getting all the therapy we can squeeze in (and get covered by insurance/school) while he's young.  I figure the more we do now, hopefully the better the future will be for him.  I can for sure see his issues socializing hurting him more moving forward.  He's such a sweetheart, he'd get hurt feelings for sure.

[junebug060609]

Mar 5, 2015 9:41:54 GMT -5 hopecounts said:

We use homemade social stories with DD a lot, I typically take pictures and drop them into a word doc and write the story at 3 when we started (with the help of her SLP) we kept the words very short, as she has progressed the words have increased but still keeping it under 12 per page.
1 pic = 1 page.
She had a 15 page one for WDW that worked great, she even scripted it a time or two while we were there in the appropriate situations so she clearly made the connection.

I love this idea. You wouldn't happen to have a sample one of 'playing nicely' or the like, would you? Having never used SS before, I'm not sure how they are set up.

I suspect DS will do scripting. He might be doing it in his own way already, actually. I've caught him re-enacting his favorite scenes from Thomas with his toy trains several times.

[hopecounts]

Mar 5, 2015 11:18:36 GMT -5 junebug060609 said:

Mar 5, 2015 9:41:54 GMT -5 hopecounts said:

We use homemade social stories with DD a lot, I typically take pictures and drop them into a word doc and write the story at 3 when we started (with the help of her SLP) we kept the words very short, as she has progressed the words have increased but still keeping it under 12 per page.
1 pic = 1 page.
She had a 15 page one for WDW that worked great, she even scripted it a time or two while we were there in the appropriate situations so she clearly made the connection.

I love this idea. You wouldn't happen to have a sample one of 'playing nicely' or the like, would you? Having never used SS before, I'm not sure how they are set up.

I suspect DS will do scripting. He might be doing it in his own way already, actually. I've caught him re-enacting his favorite scenes from Thomas with his toy trains several times.

Not that specifically but have a 'going to the dentist' 'going to school' wdw and potty ones. 
I'm happy to send you any of them if you want to pm me your e-mail to use as examples

[mrsbuttinski]

Mar 5, 2015 11:14:44 GMT -5 junebug060609 said:

Mar 5, 2015 8:45:26 GMT -5 mrsbuttinski said:

Re: Social Stories.

They're a trademarked product. Accept no generics or ready-mades. He may be old enough to get something from a Social Story. Basically they're a riff on the positive parenting approach of telling a kid what you want them to do rather than defaulting to "no" all the time. The illustrations serve as a multisensory element to help teach. He is on the young side, but remember the Social Stories concept was created for children with ASD- so a certain emotional and receptive language processing delays are assumed. Valid point.  He's nearly 3.5, so even if they are aimed at 4's, he's not that far off that now.  He might do ok with it...if I can hold his attention long enough to get through it.  Do they make Social Stories in Thomas the Train? (Joking, sort of...that's what holds his interest these days).

Sorry no. They have to be as close to what he'll encounter IRL. 

That said, there are a lot of behavioral parables in the original Railway Stories that you could read and talk about.  The creator of the stories was a pastor and the collection reflects that.


www.amazon.com/Thomas-Tank-Engine-Complete-Collection/dp/0517187868/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1425573822&sr=1-1&keywords=thomas+the+train+the+complete+railway+series

[junebug060609]

Mar 5, 2015 11:37:34 GMT -5 hopecounts said:

Mar 5, 2015 11:18:36 GMT -5 junebug060609 said:

I love this idea. You wouldn't happen to have a sample one of 'playing nicely' or the like, would you? Having never used SS before, I'm not sure how they are set up.

I suspect DS will do scripting. He might be doing it in his own way already, actually. I've caught him re-enacting his favorite scenes from Thomas with his toy trains several times.

Not that specifically but have a 'going to the dentist' 'going to school' wdw and potty ones. 
I'm happy to send you any of them if you want to pm me your e-mail to use as examples :)That would be great.  Thanks!