Not baby related but this made my head explode

[yelah250]

veronicapartridge.com/why-i-chose-to-no-longer-wear-leggings/#disqus_thread

[kmoria]

This is ridiculous. It is not a woman's fault for what she wears. Men need to cultivate self control.

[petrichor14]

Ha. OMG. Ok.

I don't want to be disrespectful to anyone's beliefs. But I will say that it's not a woman's job to prevent the men of the world from having lustful thoughts. Give me a fucking break. This is the kind "logic" that leads to women being required to cover their bodies and faces and stay indoors unless accompanied by a chaperone. Yeah, no.

[caymarks]

I see it from a totally different perspective. What if its your daughter wearing the clothes (leggings, short shorts, whatever it is) and some creeping guy is getting turned on my your daughter? The question of whether its your daughter's fault isn't the issue. Its that some creeper is thinking about your daughter in a sexual way which I'm sure you wouldn't be okay with.

Not trying to debate. This is just my stance.

[yelah250]

Creepers are gonna creep. As long as they keep their thoughts to themselves, I could honestly care less what they are thinking about. I mean, I'd rather they not think about my daughter, but I also think she should be able to wear leggings without having to censor herself because of someone else's thoughts.

[kmoria]

This also the kind of logic that leads to victim shaming. "She was asking for it by wearing tight clothes/low clothes/short clothes." However, like a previous poster I worry about how to approach this topic with a daughter. I don't want lecherous folks looking at my children, but I don't want them to feel like they are at fault.

[caymarks]

I guess we just have differing opinions.

[caymarks]

That's my point kmoria -- The question of whether its my child's fault isn't the way I look at it. I look at it from the stance that if I can prevent even a small amount of the creepy thoughts someone might be thinking, why wouldn't I?

I'm sure my opinion stems from my conservative background and my religious beliefs.

[yelah250]

The article is about a grown woman, but I still think it applies to girls. Clothing shouldn't define or control IMO.

[imavera]

I don't think you can prevent their thoughts. A creepster is likely going to be attracted to a little girl, no matter what she's wearing. Same goes for creepers of little boys.

[petrichor14]

Jan 22, 2015 17:47:39 GMT -5 caymarks said:

I see it from a totally different perspective. What if its your daughter wearing the clothes (leggings, short shorts, whatever it is) and some creeping guy is getting turned on my your daughter? The question of whether its your daughter's fault isn't the issue. Its that some creeper is thinking about your daughter in a sexual way which I'm sure you wouldn't be okay with.

Not trying to debate. This is just my stance.

Yeah, we are not talking about children or teenagers though- this is a grown woman. And I think, realistically, when you go out in the world people are going to look at you in ways you may or may not be comfortable with. You can't control other people's thoughts. And men are going to have sexual thoughts about women, regardless of how conservatively they dress. It's silly to act like eschewing yoga pants is going to have some effect on that, and suggesting that women should modify their behavior because men "just can't help it" otherwise is a dangerous line of thinking that leads to repression of women ("for their own safety") and victim-blaming.

tl;dr - I wear yoga pants because they are comfortable. I could give a flying fuck if some dude in the line behind me at Starbucks is getting a boner over them. Not my problem.

[petrichor14]

If we're talking about children/our daughters it's a different issue. There is certainly an argument to be made for not allowing your child to wear certain things because you want to shield her from being sexualized by others at an age where she may not be equipped to deal with it.

We can totally have that discussion at some point, but this blog post was about adults, so that's not the issue on the table here.

[caymarks]

Jan 22, 2015 18:15:04 GMT -5 petrichor14 said:

Jan 22, 2015 17:47:39 GMT -5 caymarks said:

I see it from a totally different perspective. What if its your daughter wearing the clothes (leggings, short shorts, whatever it is) and some creeping guy is getting turned on my your daughter? The question of whether its your daughter's fault isn't the issue. Its that some creeper is thinking about your daughter in a sexual way which I'm sure you wouldn't be okay with.

Not trying to debate. This is just my stance.

Yeah, we are not talking about children or teenagers though- this is a grown woman. And I think, realistically, when you go out in the world people are going to look at you in ways you may or may not be comfortable with. You can't control other people's thoughts. And men are going to have sexual thoughts about women, regardless of how conservatively they dress. It's silly to act like eschewing yoga pants is going to have some effect on that, and suggesting that women should modify their behavior because men "just can't help it" otherwise is a dangerous line of thinking that leads to repression of women ("for their own safety") and victim-blaming.

tl;dr - I wear yoga pants because they are comfortable. I could give a flying fuck if some dude in the line behind me at Starbucks is getting a boner over them. Not my problem.

This is where my opinion differs. I think if I can do something about how someone perceives my body then I'm going to do it. And it is my problem is someone is thinking thoughts about me. Is it my fault, no? Can changing from yoga pants that show off my entire butt to a more modest pair of pants/skirt change that persons thoughts. IMO opinion its worth the shot. Plus I think its respectful to my husband to not be putting any parts of my body on display for any reason.

[yelah250]

Slippery slope to Burqa...that's what this kind of reminds me of.

[petrichor14]

Jan 22, 2015 18:22:42 GMT -5 caymarks said:

Jan 22, 2015 18:15:04 GMT -5 petrichor14 said:

Yeah, we are not talking about children or teenagers though- this is a grown woman. And I think, realistically, when you go out in the world people are going to look at you in ways you may or may not be comfortable with. You can't control other people's thoughts. And men are going to have sexual thoughts about women, regardless of how conservatively they dress. It's silly to act like eschewing yoga pants is going to have some effect on that, and suggesting that women should modify their behavior because men "just can't help it" otherwise is a dangerous line of thinking that leads to repression of women ("for their own safety") and victim-blaming.

tl;dr - I wear yoga pants because they are comfortable. I could give a flying fuck if some dude in the line behind me at Starbucks is getting a boner over them. Not my problem.

This is where my opinion differs. I think if I can do something about how someone perceives my body then I'm going to do it. And it is my problem is someone is thinking thoughts about me. Is it my fault, no? Can changing from yoga pants that show off my entire butt to a more modest pair of pants/skirt change that persons thoughts. IMO opinion its worth the shot. Plus I think its respectful to my husband to not be putting any parts of my body on display for any reason.

And you know, that's fine if you feel more comfortable dressing modestly. I would never tell another adult what they should and shouldn't wear.

Realistically, people are going to think those thoughts regardless. They just are. That's not to say what you wear has no effect, but if some dude thinks you are attractive he doesn't have to be staring at your ass in leggings to fantasize or have sexual thoughts about you. You could be wearing a potato sack and some guy is going to look at you and try to imagine what your body looks like underneath. That's not to paint all men as creepers who do nothing but ogle women and try to imagine having sex with them- obviously it's not all men, and not all the time, and women do it to, etc etc.

But where I guess we differ fundamentally is I don't see anything wrong with it and I don't think it affects me in any way, so I don't care. Having sexual thoughts, feeling lust, looking at people you are attracted to (regardless of whether you are in a relationship or married or not)- those are natural, normal parts of human sexuality. I don't think they need to be pathologized and policed. So, as long as he is making no sexual advances and not behaving in a creepy and disrespectful manner, I don't think it's wrong for the guy in line behind me to be checking out my ass and having whatever thoughts he happens to have about it. And if he's bothered by those thoughts, for whatever reason, that's on him to deal with- it has nothing to do with me.

[yelah250]

My daughter is all about the leggings - same with every girl at her elementary school!

[caymarks]

You can dress modestly without wearing a burqa. That's my point. It's personal though and I understand that.

[yelah250]

But when you let someone else's thoughts control your dressing, who says what modest actually is? Maybe a burqa is what's needed to stave off sexual thoughts about you. How do you actually know?

[petrichor14]

Jan 22, 2015 18:38:52 GMT -5 caymarks said:

You can dress modestly without wearing a burqa. That's my point. It's personal though and I understand that.

Of course, and I don't think any of us would argue with that. But the problem is that "modesty" is an extremely subjective concept. To one person, modesty might mean no yoga pants or booty shorts; to someone else it might mean nothing fitted tight against the body or showing any thigh or cleavage, to someone else no skin visible at all or nothing that reveals any of the female form. Obviously there is a world of difference between "no leggings" and a burqa, but the idea that women need to dress "modestly" to keep men from having sexual thoughts is the EXACT argument used by both. They are logically equivalent, just coming from different cultural norms about modesty and what is considered "too revealing."

[caymarks]

I agree. And like I said much of how I feel about this topic comes from my background, my experiences and my religious convictions.

I still think if the same lady walked into a store and had on tight pants and her chest was hanging out a man would be way more likely to take a look than if she had her boobs covered and her butt wasn't showing every curve. Honestly I find it hard to believe that's even arguable. I think it works the same for a man too. Not trying to leave that whole side of this equation out.

I guess why I even stated my opinion here is because several were mentioning that it was crazy that she decided to no longer wear leggings. If its all about drawing your own boundaries then why does it matter if she chose to dress more modest.

[kmoria]

If she has come to the decision that yoga pants, leggings, etc. are no longer in her comfort zone, that's fine. That's a decision she's making for her own comfort. When she is making the decision in an attempt to control the thoughts of others, that's totally different. I dress "modestly" because it is within my comfort zone. I do not dress in that way to influence the thoughts of others.

[petrichor14]

Jan 22, 2015 19:05:45 GMT -5 caymarks said:

I agree. And like I said much of how I feel about this topic comes from my background, my experiences and my religious convictions.

I still think if the same lady walked into a store and had on tight pants and her chest was hanging out a man would be way more likely to take a look than if she had her boobs covered and her butt wasn't showing every curve. Honestly I find it hard to believe that's even arguable. I think it works the same for a man too. Not trying to leave that whole side of this equation out.

I guess why I even stated my opinion here is because several were mentioning that it was crazy that she decided to no longer wear leggings. If its all about drawing your own boundaries then why does it matter if she chose to dress more modest.

I can't speak for everyone, but I don't think it's crazy that she chose not to wear leggings- I just think her argument for doing so is... I don't know- unrealistic and silly at best, dangerously regressive at worst. For the reasons already mentioned.

If she just said "you know, I realized I'm not really comfortable wearing leggings anymore- I feel like they're too revealing and they make me self conscious, I don't want guys staring at my butt in line at Starbucks." Ok, cool. There's no arguing with that. We've all got different comfort levels and what you wear is a personal decision- there's certainly things I'd choose not to wear in public for various reasons.

But instead she writes about how it's her job as a woman to control the lustful thoughts of men. (No.) And, gee, she's been wearing leggings for years but somehow never realized before today that they are made of thin fabric that clings to your butt (and then sometimes men will look at your butt, and have those bad dirty thoughts he should only be having about his wife!)

It's just silly. Not her decision, but the reasoning behind her decision and the way she chooses to present that reasoning.

[bim381]

"The only time I feel (for myself) it is acceptable to wear them, is if I am in the comfort of my own home or if I am wearing a shirt long enough to cover my rear end."

ok, so based on this, if her shirt is covering her butt, it's ok to wear leggings in public.... but really, no one should ever be wearing leggings without a shirt covering their butt!! Gross. And isn't that common fashion knowledge?! That was my first thought

I don't agree w/ not wearing them in public, or her reasoning for it... but that's her choice.

As far as girls wearing leggings, ITA with yelah250. That is basically the only type of "pants" my 6 y/o will wear because she finds jeans and button/zipper pants uncomfortable (mainly because she's so skinny but really tall, so pants don't fit her right and the zipper/button part tends to be too high on her belly and uncomfortable). So all she wears are leggings, but they're thick and not even close to being tight on her. NBD.

[kristhegirl]

Jan 22, 2015 19:05:45 GMT -5 caymarks said:

I agree. And like I said much of how I feel about this topic comes from my background, my experiences and my religious convictions.

I still think if the same lady walked into a store and had on tight pants and her chest was hanging out a man would be way more likely to take a look than if she had her boobs covered and her butt wasn't showing every curve. Honestly I find it hard to believe that's even arguable. I think it works the same for a man too. Not trying to leave that whole side of this equation out.

I guess why I even stated my opinion here is because several were mentioning that it was crazy that she decided to no longer wear leggings. If its all about drawing your own boundaries then why does it matter if she chose to dress more modest.

This reminds me of a story a man I go to church with told me recently about finding out after he arrived with his family that the beach they were vacationing on was tops-optional for men and women. Even being pretty conservative and unused to seeing breasts all over the place in public, he said by the first evening even he'd stopped noticing.

The hyper-sexualization of women's bodies is not a universal truth, it is learned. It is not up to women to ensure the purity of anyone's mind, that is a terrible standard and is unfair to both men and women. Men are not barely contained rabid sexual animals, women are not the dichotomy of the Virgin / The Whore.

Choosing how to cover one's own body is a personal decision and there are no wrong answers; the "purity" of someone else should not enter the equation.

[laurawaller]

When I was 16 I was raped by my step dads best friend. I never wore anything to show of my figure but leggings and a baggy top that I slouched around In... To me this isn't anything that would start sexual thoughts but apparently it was.
I know having sexual thoughts and rape are completely different but I think it doesn't really matter what you wear people are going to look at you either way, or act upon these thoughts. Yes maybe people will look more if you're wearing something more revealing but at the end of the day I don't think it makes a huge difference, people will have these thoughts either way.

I hope this makes sense :/

[petrichor14]

Jan 22, 2015 19:05:45 GMT -5 caymarks said:

I agree. And like I said much of how I feel about this topic comes from my background, my experiences and my religious convictions.

I still think if the same lady walked into a store and had on tight pants and her chest was hanging out a man would be way more likely to take a look than if she had her boobs covered and her butt wasn't showing every curve. Honestly I find it hard to believe that's even arguable. I think it works the same for a man too. Not trying to leave that whole side of this equation out.

I guess why I even stated my opinion here is because several were mentioning that it was crazy that she decided to no longer wear leggings. If its all about drawing your own boundaries then why does it matter if she chose to dress more modest.

I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise about that point- I'm certainly not. But again, let's take that a step further. If going into a store wearing super tight pants and tons of cleavage would result in, let's say 90% of men staring. And wearing something still fashionable, but a bit more modest- no cleavage, regular slim fit pants- resulted in only half those men- 45%- checking her out. Well, that's better but it's still not great. Maybe she should wear a floor-length skirt and a shapeless sweater to better hide her form- now maybe only 10% will be trying to get a look. But why stop there- drape her in loose black fabric and cut a hole for her eyes- then 0% of men will be distracted by her body. If looking at women lustfully is bad, surely something that results in no men looking at you lustfully is better than half of men or even 10% of them, right?

Of course just because they can't see her body doesn't mean some men aren't going to have some filthy thoughts about what she might look like under that thing and whether they could get her to do a,b, or c with them. And I think that's a point we keep trying to make- clothing only has so much of an effect (what's the real sin anyway- the looking or the thinking?)

What I'm trying to say is no one would argue that what you wear has no effect on other people and the attention you may get from them. Dressing modestly (whatever that means to you) for your own comfort or personal reasons = totally fine, no1curr. Arguing that people should dress modestly because men = not ok. The reasoning behind that argument leads to all sorts of consequences beyond the issue of whether you should wear leggings or not, and some of them are pretty awful.

[cosmicturtlemama]

Theres so much to reply to but ill try to keep it not too long. I'm agreeing with the line of dressing modestly so that other people don't think of you is just silly. I'll always wear what I want, and my kids will definitely know that its not their responsibilty to dress so people don't think of them a certain way.also in reference to some of the worrying about your daughter dressing a certain way, most children that are sexually abused, it isn't from some random creep job that thought they were "dressed sexy" :/


All that aside I'm just going to say as someone who is sexually attracted to women, I'll politely and non creepily check out a nice butt in yoga pants or jeans or sweats if I see it, and I'm a strong believer that all sexual people have sexual thoughts that cross their mind. I could be attracted to a woman cause she has nice hair, a beautiful smile, walks a certain way/carries her self a certain way. I don't mean it to sound creepy or weird, but the whole thought of I'm not going to wear this one type of clothing so no one has sexual thoughts of me seems silly and it doesn't work. If someone finds you attractive they may have sexual thoughts and that is actually okay, I mean how would you even know anyway? If they act on those thoughts in any way that makes you uncomfortable that is NOT okay and NOT you/your clothes fault.

[LydiaDeetz]

What happened to people being accountable? Why is it my obligation to placate and subdue SOMEONE ELSE'S thoughts by changing something about myself?

I personally don't own or wear leggings, but don't cast judgement either. If I see some lady in the store sporting some leggings I don't hold her responsible for the thoughts in my head, just as I wouldn't blame her for what my husband is thinking. That's absurd and I find this article silly. Wear your leggings guurrrls!

[foolofatook]

redemptionpictures.com/2014/04/30/what-i-wish-women-knew-about-men/

My friend Micah blogs and this post broke the internet when he first wrote it. He brought it back today because of the link in the OP.

Also, if you really want to know what I think of this: I think this viewpoint is "slut shaming," victim shaming, and downright atrocious. I grew up SURROUNDED by this shit, and it's not okay.

[foolofatook]

The above link is satire. Just in case anyone gets the wrong idea.