NPR: White woman pretending to be black, leading NAACP chp.

[britterrss]

Have y'all seen this news?

jezebel.com/i-have-questions-about-that-white-lady-who-maybe-preten-1710807777

www.buzzfeed.com/claudiakoerner/a-civil-rights-leader-has-disguised-herself-as-black-for-yea#.enrmYo2mJ

WTAF was she thinking?!

[tkford216]

I saw clippings about it, but I was curious how she got outed. It was by her parents?!

[tkford216]

Wait, AND she made fake hate crime accusations?!

This gets more and more crazy as I read...

[britterrss]

Jun 12, 2015 11:13:20 GMT -5 tkford216 said:

I saw clippings about it, but I was curious how she got outed. It was by her parents?!

Yeah I think she cut them out of her life and they got fed up or something. I think at one point she claimed to be born in Africa Montana and her family hunted with bows and arrows.....

eta: they lived in Africa during her childhood, supposedly

[akraus2015]

Oh my goodness. Why would someone do this???

[lemoncupcake]

This is bizarre with a capital B.

[britterrss]

Maybe she has like a personality disorder or something?

[akraus2015]

Jun 12, 2015 11:39:19 GMT -5 britterrss said:

Maybe she has like a personality disorder or something?

That's what I was thinking...

[tkford216]

Have you seen any articles that explain what she might have been using to make her skin look darker? I'm just curious, because she must have had a pretty intense morning routine or something. I want to hear from her husband.. was he in on this too or did he really believe she was black?

[akraus2015]

Honestly, if she had just altered her appearance, I could get on board with that. People change their hair all the time, I go to a tanning bed every spring to get some color to my skin. It's the deceitfulness that bothers me. I'm all about being your true self (and maybe she feels that her physical appearance now truly reflects who she is on the inside) but there's no reason to lie about it. It's the complex web of lies that make me feel like there has to be some sort of underlying issue here. And the made up hate crimes? Why? There's no reason for that. Especially since she's an "advocate" of civil rights.

[britterrss]

Interesting article on her in February from before all this blew up. How much is true?!

easterneronline.com/35006/eagle-life/a-life-to-be-heard/#sthash.JLfzJQ03.dpbs

[empireceo]

There's a significant amount of discussion in the comment section about the fact that she truly feels black. She identifies as such, she has 4 adopted black children and works for the NAACP. So, is this really different that what Caitlyn Jenner did? I think it's an interesting thing to think about. On the one hand, cultural appropriation, she can't truly know the black experience, etc. Do those things apply to Caitlyn as well? On the other hand, I mean, what would really be the "advantage" to present yourself as a black woman in America, you know? So maybe her motivation is truly to live her life the way she truly feels herself to be.

I don't know. I think there are some complex questions here and I don't have any answers, but I do like to think about them.

[akraus2015]

Jun 12, 2015 12:57:46 GMT -5 empireceo said:

There's a significant amount of discussion in the comment section about the fact that she truly feels black. She identifies as such, she has 4 adopted black children and works for the NAACP. So, is this really different that what Caitlyn Jenner did? I think it's an interesting thing to think about. On the one hand, cultural appropriation, she can't truly know the black experience, etc. Do those things apply to Caitlyn as well? On the other hand, I mean, what would really be the "advantage" to present yourself as a black woman in America, you know? So maybe her motivation is truly to live her life the way she truly feels herself to be.

I don't know. I think there are some complex questions here and I don't have any answers, but I do like to think about them.

I was thinking along the same lines you are (see post above).  Except....the lying.  Caitlyn Jenner said "This is how I feel and this is who I identify with, I'm going to do me."  That I can appreciate.  The lies, and distancing family because they're white (although who knows the whole story there), and the deception are what gets me.

[britterrss]

Jun 12, 2015 13:08:01 GMT -5 akraus2015 said:

Jun 12, 2015 12:57:46 GMT -5 empireceo said:

There's a significant amount of discussion in the comment section about the fact that she truly feels black. She identifies as such, she has 4 adopted black children and works for the NAACP. So, is this really different that what Caitlyn Jenner did? I think it's an interesting thing to think about. On the one hand, cultural appropriation, she can't truly know the black experience, etc. Do those things apply to Caitlyn as well? On the other hand, I mean, what would really be the "advantage" to present yourself as a black woman in America, you know? So maybe her motivation is truly to live her life the way she truly feels herself to be.

I don't know. I think there are some complex questions here and I don't have any answers, but I do like to think about them.

I was thinking along the same lines you are (see post above).  Except....the lying.  Caitlyn Jenner said "This is how I feel and this is who I identify with, I'm going to do me."  That I can appreciate.  The lies, and distancing family because they're white (although who knows the whole story there), and the deception are what gets me.

Yeah I can't get past the lying. Lying on your application about your race. Saying they are your kids when they are your parents' adopted kids, lying about receiving hate mail, lying about who your parents are... I dunno. I do sympathize if that's how she truly feels - wanting to be black, but I think she really needs to explain what's going on if she wants to save her reputation.

[lvlyldybmp]

Jun 12, 2015 11:44:10 GMT -5 akraus2015 said:

Jun 12, 2015 11:39:19 GMT -5 britterrss said:

Maybe she has like a personality disorder or something?

That's what I was thinking...

^ This, and clearly there are some serious mental health issues.  I saw this on the news, and they asked people if she should resign, someone on FB posted "why should her race identity matter?"
Um, no. Stop. 'Race identity' is not a thing, it's black or white (pun intended) either you are black or you aren't, you're Hispanic or you're not, there is no "identifying with another race" and adopting it as your own.

[empireceo]

Jun 12, 2015 20:45:42 GMT -5 lvlyldybmp said:

Jun 12, 2015 11:44:10 GMT -5 akraus2015 said:

That's what I was thinking...

^ This, and clearly there are some serious mental health issues.  I saw this on the news, and they asked people if she should resign, someone on FB posted "why should her race identity matter?"
Um, no. Stop. 'Race identity' is not a thing, it's black or white (pun intended) either you are black or you aren't, you're Hispanic or you're not, there is no "identifying with another race" and adopting it as your own.

But why? I mean, people say the same thing about gender and we dismiss them immediately or label them transphobic. One could easily make the argument you are either a man or a woman, full stop. I recognize that she has lied and why that's a problem, but I'm still struggling to understand why transracial is not a thing.

I'm not trying to be obtuse, I'm still trying to wrap my head around this.

[akraus2015]

Jun 13, 2015 6:50:13 GMT -5 empireceo said:

Jun 12, 2015 20:45:42 GMT -5 lvlyldybmp said:

^ This, and clearly there are some serious mental health issues.  I saw this on the news, and they asked people if she should resign, someone on FB posted "why should her race identity matter?"
Um, no. Stop. 'Race identity' is not a thing, it's black or white (pun intended) either you are black or you aren't, you're Hispanic or you're not, there is no "identifying with another race" and adopting it as your own.

But why? I mean, people say the same thing about gender and we dismiss them immediately or label them transphobic. One could easily make the argument you are either a man or a woman, full stop. I recognize that she has lied and why that's a problem, but I'm still struggling to understand why transracial is not a thing.

I'm not trying to be obtuse, I'm still trying to wrap my head around this.

I'm with you. Maybe she really does identify as black. That's fine. Just don't deceive people.

[britterrss]

Yeah it's interesting to think about transracial. We have men and women because there are genetically different "roles" for each (assuming they don't have gender dysmorphia). There really shouldn't be different roles for different races - it's just based on color and maybe some structural features. But yeah, I guess one could be transracial if she wanted to physically look like another race. But you can adopt another culture without lying about who/what you are...and I feel like maybe she was going more for the black experience or black culture... Which maybe doesn't get separated from race all too often (in America), but I think of race and culture totally separately.

It's so weird to wrap my head around. I'm not one to judge how she feels, just the lying, kind of feel sorry for her now.

[lemoncupcake]

I like this article as a counter-point to the transgender arguments:

m.huffpost.com/us/entry/7569160?1434138166=&ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063

[tkford216]

Jun 13, 2015 12:33:36 GMT -5 lemoncupcake said:

I like this article as a counter-point to the transgender arguments:

m.huffpost.com/us/entry/7569160?1434138166=&ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063

I understand what the article is saying, but how can we say that Dolezal didn't have an inner, personal struggle with being white, as Jenner did being male? Maybe she did really feel she was supposed to be born black, into a different family and a different life. How is that any different? Why can we say one struggle is real and the other is not? I think that's the point people are making by comparing the two. 

I don't think the "transracial" thing gives her a break regardless, because she lied and deceived people in the process. 

[lemoncupcake]

Jun 13, 2015 13:32:57 GMT -5 tkford216 said:

Jun 13, 2015 12:33:36 GMT -5 lemoncupcake said:

I like this article as a counter-point to the transgender arguments:

m.huffpost.com/us/entry/7569160?1434138166=&ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063

I understand what the article is saying, but how can we say that Dolezal didn't have an inner, personal struggle with being white, as Jenner did being male? Maybe she did really feel she was supposed to be born black, into a different family and a different life. How is that any different? Why can we say one struggle is real and the other is not? I think that's the point people are making by comparing the two. 

I don't think the "transracial" thing gives her a break regardless, because she lied and deceived people in the process. 

There are many, many things that separate the male and female genders. The only difference between races is melatonin and a shared history, which she can't just make up. 

Im probably not doing a very good job of explaining myself, but I just can't wrap my mind around these two situations being the same. 

[tkford216]

Jun 13, 2015 13:42:59 GMT -5 lemoncupcake said:

Jun 13, 2015 13:32:57 GMT -5 tkford216 said:

I understand what the article is saying, but how can we say that Dolezal didn't have an inner, personal struggle with being white, as Jenner did being male? Maybe she did really feel she was supposed to be born black, into a different family and a different life. How is that any different? Why can we say one struggle is real and the other is not? I think that's the point people are making by comparing the two. 

I don't think the "transracial" thing gives her a break regardless, because she lied and deceived people in the process. 

There are many, many things that separate the male and female genders. The only difference between races is melatonin and a shared history, which she can't just make up. 

Im probably not doing a very good job of explaining myself, but I just can't wrap my mind around these two situations being the same. 

I don't really understand what you're saying above (sorry) so I can't respond. But I guess my main problem with the article is that it focuses on the fact that Dolezal lied, therefore her situation can't be the same as Jenner's, because Jenner is open about it. But, that has absolutely nothing to do with whether "transracial" and transgender should be held to the same regard. I think there are two distinct issues at play here. One is a moral issue of whether she deceived people and used this identity to get ahead. The other is the bigger issue of whether or not "transracial" is a thing and how we deal with that. 

[lvlyldybmp]

Jun 13, 2015 6:50:13 GMT -5 empireceo said:

Jun 12, 2015 20:45:42 GMT -5 lvlyldybmp said:

^ This, and clearly there are some serious mental health issues.  I saw this on the news, and they asked people if she should resign, someone on FB posted "why should her race identity matter?"
Um, no. Stop. 'Race identity' is not a thing, it's black or white (pun intended) either you are black or you aren't, you're Hispanic or you're not, there is no "identifying with another race" and adopting it as your own.

But why? I mean, people say the same thing about gender and we dismiss them immediately or label them transphobic. One could easily make the argument you are either a man or a woman, full stop. I recognize that she has lied and why that's a problem, but I'm still struggling to understand why transracial is not a thing.

I'm not trying to be obtuse, I'm still trying to wrap my head around this.

I'm probably not going to explain my thoughts right, or at least they won't be the popular opinion.  I think its a slippery slope.  Where do you draw the line? People can not be connected or identify with their gender, yes, and now the race issue is here, lets take it a step further.  Why stop at species, so someone identifies with being canine instead of human, does that make them a dog? No, they are human.  Say you feel more like a French citizen than an American citizen, does that make you any less of an American citizen just because you like how the French live or whatever? No.

I don't get what the problem is with labeling things.  Why is it so bad to check her and say "look, you're not black, even if you identify with it, that's not what you are." There has to be a line somewhere, and I think race is a clearly defined category.

Just because you "identify with being black" doesn't make you black.  Aside from the skin color, there are cultural and socioeconomic pieces that shape minorities that are different for whites.  It's not something you can surgically achieve (like parts of gender) and no matter how many times you perm your hair it's not the same thing.

[empireceo]

Jun 13, 2015 19:33:45 GMT -5 lvlyldybmp said:

Jun 13, 2015 6:50:13 GMT -5 empireceo said:

But why? I mean, people say the same thing about gender and we dismiss them immediately or label them transphobic. One could easily make the argument you are either a man or a woman, full stop. I recognize that she has lied and why that's a problem, but I'm still struggling to understand why transracial is not a thing.

I'm not trying to be obtuse, I'm still trying to wrap my head around this.

I'm probably not going to explain my thoughts right, or at least they won't be the popular opinion.  I think its a slippery slope.  Where do you draw the line? People can not be connected or identify with their gender, yes, and now the race issue is here, lets take it a step further.  Why stop at species, so someone identifies with being canine instead of human, does that make them a dog? No, they are human.  Say you feel more like a French citizen than an American citizen, does that make you any less of an American citizen just because you like how the French live or whatever? No.

I don't get what the problem is with labeling things.  Why is it so bad to check her and say "look, you're not black, even if you identify with it, that's not what you are." There has to be a line somewhere, and I think race is a clearly defined category.

Just because you "identify with being black" doesn't make you black.  Aside from the skin color, there are cultural and socioeconomic pieces that shape minorities that are different for whites.  It's not something you can surgically achieve (like parts of gender) and no matter how many times you perm your hair it's not the same thing.

Yes, I agree.  But I think the thing is, why is it bad to check a transgender person and say "look you are not a woman, even if you identify with it, even if you want to present yourself in the way women traditionally do."  Aren't there also parts of being a woman that no surgery can achieve?  I would say that there are.

It seems to me that we are getting to the point in our society where we can just will away reality because we don't like it.  I consider myself to be pretty progressive but this issue has made me rethink some of what I just accepted as true, which is uncomfortable for me.  But, I don't think challenging my thoughts is ever a bad thing.

[lemoncupcake]

Jun 14, 2015 10:32:57 GMT -5 empireceo said:

Jun 13, 2015 19:33:45 GMT -5 lvlyldybmp said:

I'm probably not going to explain my thoughts right, or at least they won't be the popular opinion.  I think its a slippery slope.  Where do you draw the line? People can not be connected or identify with their gender, yes, and now the race issue is here, lets take it a step further.  Why stop at species, so someone identifies with being canine instead of human, does that make them a dog? No, they are human.  Say you feel more like a French citizen than an American citizen, does that make you any less of an American citizen just because you like how the French live or whatever? No.

I don't get what the problem is with labeling things.  Why is it so bad to check her and say "look, you're not black, even if you identify with it, that's not what you are." There has to be a line somewhere, and I think race is a clearly defined category.

Just because you "identify with being black" doesn't make you black.  Aside from the skin color, there are cultural and socioeconomic pieces that shape minorities that are different for whites.  It's not something you can surgically achieve (like parts of gender) and no matter how many times you perm your hair it's not the same thing.

Yes, I agree.  But I think the thing is, why is it bad to check a transgender person and say "look you are not a woman, even if you identify with it, even if you want to present yourself in the way women traditionally do."  Aren't there also parts of being a woman that no surgery can achieve?  I would say that there are.

It seems to me that we are getting to the point in our society where we can just will away reality because we don't like it.  I consider myself to be pretty progressive but this issue has made me rethink some of what I just accepted as true, which is uncomfortable for me.  But, I don't think challenging my thoughts is ever a bad thing.

Are you insinuating that transgender people are just making it up/choosing to feel wrong in the bodies they were born with? There are documented differences in the brain with people who are transgender. 

www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304854804579234030532617704

Conversely, there aren't any differences in the human brain between members of difference races/ethnic groups that I'm aware of. 

[empireceo]

Jun 14, 2015 10:51:23 GMT -5 lemoncupcake said:

Jun 14, 2015 10:32:57 GMT -5 empireceo said:

Yes, I agree.  But I think the thing is, why is it bad to check a transgender person and say "look you are not a woman, even if you identify with it, even if you want to present yourself in the way women traditionally do."  Aren't there also parts of being a woman that no surgery can achieve?  I would say that there are.

It seems to me that we are getting to the point in our society where we can just will away reality because we don't like it.  I consider myself to be pretty progressive but this issue has made me rethink some of what I just accepted as true, which is uncomfortable for me.  But, I don't think challenging my thoughts is ever a bad thing.

Are you insinuating that transgender people are just making it up/choosing to feel wrong in the bodies they were born with? There are documented differences in the brain with people who are transgender. 

www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304854804579234030532617704

Conversely, there aren't any differences in the human brain between members of difference races/ethnic groups that I'm aware of. 

I am not insinuating that at all.  I'm not sure how you would make that leap at all.

Sex and color are biological characteristics.  Gender and race are social constructs.  So, I think that there needs to be consistency about whether it is socially acceptable to change your gender/race.  I'm being open about having a hard time wrapping my head around that.

[lemoncupcake]

Jun 14, 2015 12:09:41 GMT -5 empireceo said:

I am not insinuating that at all.  I'm not sure how you would make that leap at all.

Sex and color are biological characteristics.  Gender and race are social constructs.  So, I think that there needs to be consistency about whether it is socially acceptable to change your gender/race.  I'm being open about having a hard time wrapping my head around that.

Sorry - I thought that's what you meant by "checking" someone who identifies as transgender to tell them that they'll never truly be the gender that feels right to them.

[tkford216]

In case you haven't seen this...

www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/12/rachel-dolezal-black_n_7573930.html

[lvlyldybmp]

She can say she "considers herself to be black" all the wants, but it still doesn't change the fact that she isn't black. Maybe one day race will become something someone can change by transitioning or whatever, but as of right now they can't. People changing their gender through surgery, etc. has come a long way, that wasn't always accepted, I don' see what the problems is with letting it evolve. Gender transitioning didn't happen overnight, I don't think the experiences of one obviously confused woman is enough to create a racial transition 'thing' as being legitimate.

[empireceo]

Jun 14, 2015 12:48:11 GMT -5 lemoncupcake said:

Jun 14, 2015 12:09:41 GMT -5 empireceo said:

I am not insinuating that at all.  I'm not sure how you would make that leap at all.

Sex and color are biological characteristics.  Gender and race are social constructs.  So, I think that there needs to be consistency about whether it is socially acceptable to change your gender/race.  I'm being open about having a hard time wrapping my head around that.

Sorry - I thought that's what you meant by "checking" someone who identifies as transgender to tell them that they'll never truly be the gender that feels right to them.

Ah, I see. I was just using PP's language and I see how that was misinterpreted.