Let's discuss TAW Chapters 1-12

[CatLady]

Spoilers in this thread if you haven't read chapters 1-12. Duh.



Alright everyone, I gotta talk about this book. I don't know how to do this.

But first, can we chat about this whole kidnapping/murder thing. WTF. I just can't. I was reading on the train and had to stop.


Anyways, I've been thinking of discussion questions also.
1. What do you make of her need to do something great? I keep getting this notion throughout the first part of the book that she isn't happy with complacency. What feelz does this bring up for you personally?
2. What did you think of her early parenting of Charles? (No holding, no unnecessary affection) Once again, what did it bring up for you?



Let us get rolling on the discussion and see what happens. 

[corrys12]

Hey!

Ok, glad to finally get some discussion going.

First, maybe I was a total dunce in school, but I swear I never heard of Charles Lindbergh. I had no clue these were real people. I realize this is a work of fiction based on real people.

Ok....kidnapping/murder. Maybe I am cold blooded, maybe my heart is a rock, but I wasn't completely fazed. It's tragic. But not a tear was shed on my end. This could also be a result of my being under all types of stress.....

1. The need to do something great. She definitely was not ok with complacency. She came from a family of overachievers. However I don't really think she felt a need to do something great, that was her husband. He pushed her. I think she had less of a desire to do something great and more of a desire to feel accomplished and happy. Doing "something great" entailed being recognized and receiving accolades. She wasn't about that. She would always have been more content to hide in the corner, comfortably people watching.

In my opinion she did however like feeling accomplished. While she was pushed to learn to navigate and fly (vs doing it for her own self satisfaction) she did feel a sense of accomplishment in being able to learn and execute and put those skills to use. She felt most comfortable with Charles when she was up in the air with him, just the two of them. And 1 compliment from him far outweighed the countless articles written about them and all the public praise.

Charles had the burning desire to constantly be great and do great things.

Hope that makes sense.

2. I had never heard of that method of parenting. I can't exactly remember what it was called. But that is a bunch of crock. I see why she went along with it, but she knew in her gut it was not right for her. I was proud of her for finally rebelling and throwing that out the window. I was also happy when her Mother stepped in on Charlies first birthday and comforted him when he was crying.

For me it brought up a huge sense of sadness. Every baby deserves to be nurtured. Every baby deserves affection.

As if we didn't know it by then, it highlighted how self-centered Charlea was. I believe the book touched on the fact that he had been raised much the same way. And he felt like "and look how great I turned out."

Brings to mind the fact that people who are sometimes denied affection as children can grow to be one of two different people. My mother was abandoned as a child, did not grow up with either mother or father, and received little to no affection. So that is how she raised us. It was hurtful. She always said she didn't know how to be any other way.

Now, my sisters and I also grew up with very little affection from our mother. Our father was different. But 1 of my sisters and I are the conplete opposite. We are affectionate and doting and all the warm and fuzzies. One of my other sisters is exactly like my mother. And my other sister is somewhere in the middle.

My mom recognized her way of parenting (where affection was concerned) was not the best, she just didn't know how to fix it. Charles, he thought the world of himself. Grade A asshole.

[Deleted]

corrys12 I agree with your thoughts on Anne's ambition vs Charles pushing her...I felt anxiety for her every time he made comments about how she should be "doing something" or "doing more." I view this through my grid of really not caring about pursuing a career--I always thought I would work for a little bit and then spend the rest of my life SAHM. So I felt sad for her whenever Charles tried to push her to be something more than a wife and mom.

Ok so kidnapping/murder--couldn't handle that AT ALL. Absolutely crushed me to read. I couldn't imagine going through that.

Her need to do something great--I think she always felt pressure from her family to be something. I think she wanted to feel fulfilled, whatever that meant to her, and Charles showed up and I think she swooned over him bc he encouraged her to write. I'm sure she thought he was just wanting her happiness but as the book goes on it seems like he just wouldn't have a wife who wasn't doing her own things--he wanted someone accomplished so that's why he "encouraged" her to write and to do "great" things.

I ached the entire time they described the parenting style Charles put in place. The baby in the yard in the playpen just killed me. I can see how he would think this is ok with his upbringing but I'm angry that Anne didn't step up at first. I was so glad when her mom rushed in to comfort the baby.

I was also really sad to see how he handled his grief after the baby died. I think it's really important to process and feel the feelings. I was so angry with him when he found Anne crying and told her to stop.

[sarahchrismck]

OMG the kidnapping/murder was so hard for me to read. Especially with her emotions of wondering what the baby was up to and if he was crying for her. I couldn't really handle that well. I could not imagine having to deal with that. She was still mourning that loss when her second child was born, so I bet that would have been really tough.

OK so far, Charles seems like such a dick. Maybe it's a result of his upbringing, but I hate that he won't let Anne grieve or show emotions in public. I hate how he always tells her "Good girl," like she's a child. The Watson parenting method is based on behaviorism and was actually pretty common during the 20's-30's among the wealthy (learned this in my grad school psychology class). It's cold and children raised this way tend to be detached from the world. It's really hard to read about, especially when the motherly instinct is to shower your child with affection and snuggle and love on your child. I hate that Anne had to suppress that instinct to please Charles, and I hate how Charles always came before little Charlie.

I think Anne needed to do something great because growing up, she always felt like she was in the shadow of her older sister and she was a part of the "ambassador's family," so she had a lot to live up to. But she was the "disciplined one," and it seemed like maybe she was also the forgotten Morrow sister. I think that's why she wanted to do something great.

[corrys12]

@jraeohyeaa totally agree regarding Charles pushing Anne to be more than just a mother. However I feel like he wanted her to be a wife to him first and foremost. That was extremely disturbing. He essentially forced her to abandon her newborn baby to go off flying with him and be his co-pilot. Of course that goes back to his parenting style....I agree, I was so sad for her. And thank you for the reminder about the play pen scene. That is like child abuse! I had an actual visual of that and it made me sick, poor baby, he must have felt so abandoned. And yes, I was furious with her for not running out and rescuing her baby.

I think being a SAHM is an incredible accomplishment. And if that makes any woman feel fulfilled and happy then go for it!

I think Charles was a total narcissist! He LOVED being the peoples hero.

When they were first describing Charles I thought he was just shy, I actually found his awkwardness endearing. But later on I realized he was just socially awkward and actually relished being in the lime light. He couldn't fathom people not agreeing with him.

I actually enjoyed when he had his "fall from grace," right before Pearl Harbor...

[sarahchrismck]

Jan 23, 2016 12:00:19 GMT -5 corrys12 said:

I think Charles was a total narcissist! He LOVED being the peoples hero.

When they were first describing Charles I thought he was just shy, I actually found his awkwardness endearing. But later on I realized he was just socially awkward and actually relished being in the lime light. He couldn't fathom people not agreeing with him.

This. You said it perfectly here.

[Deleted]

corrys12 I secretly enjoyed that part too...but then I hated how he made Anne be a part of it too by writing that book about his ideals. I also wish she had been more up front about how awful his anti-Semitic ideas were.

[corrys12]

Sadly, I could relate to Anne in some ways. I've been involved in an abusive relationship before, not physically, but emotionally & mentally. And that is exactly the relationship between Anne & Charles. He manipulated her and guilted her into doing what he wanted. For example, the article/pamphlet he made her write. I know what it feels like to do something you KNOW is not right, but do it out of fear or even a false sense of love.

Anne said it more than once, she would often follow Charles on all of his flights because she was scared he wouldn't come back.

However while he was away during the war, working for Ford, she WAS able to manage on her own. She felt like any other war time family, rationing and caring fir the kids. She totally would have been able to survive without him, but she lacked the self esteem to see herself as strong. She thought her self worth was a value Charles had placed on her by simply "picking her."

[beebe918]

I'm only on chapter 9 I think but I already hate Charles. As I'm reading the book I'm trying so hard not to hate Anne for letting him treat her the way he does, I just want to shake her. I was thinking to myself why doesn't the family step in more and then I realized that Charles and Anne's relationship is very reminiscent of my sister and her husbands and while I do try to talk to her about it a bit I also want to preserve our relationship.

Anyway I already knew all about the Lindbergh baby. There's some controversy around the actual guilt of the man who was convicted of the murder partly due to Charles' involvement in the case. I can totally see him being overbearing and controlling to the detriment of the case. There used to be a good documentary on Netflix about the Lindbergh baby that I want to watch if it's still available.

Also even knowing about the lindberghs I had no idea how ridiculously famous they were. Were all famous people treated like that back then to the point where people were sneaking into their estate and interrupting plays? I can see right after the flight but I was so surprised to see how famous they stayed for so long.

[CatLady]

beebe918, I also had no idea how famous they were. I feel like a fool for not knowing.

To answer my own discussion questions:

I felt like she was driven to do something great. Early in the book, she was nervous about graduating and becoming a socialite housewife. That seems awesome to me. I would love that lifestyle.

I guess this is just struck me because I've been debating about my next step in my career. Since I'll graduate in Sept, I'm debating getting a FT post-doc, working part time, or staying home. Financially, it makes more sense to stay home. But will I feel fulfilled not being a psychologist? I think I would. But it's a question I've been grappling with for a few weeks now, so reading about her own personal struggle with this issue resonated with me.

I knew that at one time, the "leave the baby be" parenting was the gold standard parenting intended to make independent children. We now know that children require stimulation and touch to grow. I guess I always think about this when thinking about my own parenting practices and I wonder if some of the things that are "good" parenting now will have people in the future shaking their heads.

Lastly, I read her book Gift of the Sea, prior to getting pregnant and I loved it. I had forgotten about it, but I definitely want to read it again as I feel like it'll help me think. I just wanted to recommend buying a copy. I feel like it's good to read at different points throughout a woman's life. I also didn't realize who wrote it until this book.

I fail at life.

[corrys12]

I'd like to piggy back on a question beebe918 posed regarding how famous people were treated.

What modern day celebrity or celebrity couple could we compare the Lindberghs to?

How is the celebrity status the Lindberghs experienced the same as a modern day celebrity or couple? How is it different?

[hiraeth]

I've been trying to figure out a way to participate that doesn't involve me getting ramble-y, but I can't. Sorry in advance

First off, I am loving this book. I didn't know much about the Lindberghs at all when I started out reading, but I've been looking things up as I get through the book.
I always find when I read a book like this, based on real events and people, it gets me to read at least one or two more books on the subject, or relating to it. I will certainly do the same this time.
I have to keep reminding myself that this is one person's perspective on how life within the relationship may have been. I'm curious to dig deeper and figure out (as much as one can, anyway) how on the mark the personalities really are. For me, I find it hard to separate the facts from the artistic license.

+1 to all the "Good girl"'s from Charles bothering me. It's so patronizing.

The kidnapping/murder had me in tears (I'm not usually one to get emotional when reading), and I snuggled LO a little bit longer MOTN when I was reading it.

As for Anne's "need to do something great," it seemed to me more like she just wanted to do something different. She didn't want to have to do exactly what was expected of her (which was college, then marriage and stay at home). But in trying to do something different such as marrying the hero and going on adventures, she was now still doing what was expected of her, but by her husband instead of by her parents. It seemed like a lateral move to me. I wonder what she would have done differently had she had to do it over again - still marry Charles but stand up for her wants and happiness, or not marry him at all?

[sarahchrismck]

I'm trying to think of a modern day couple we can compare to the Lindberghs and all I can think of is the royal couple - Will and Kate and their kids. I just remember that they had their daughter around the time I was due with DS, and there were people camped outside of the hospital for days waiting the birth. Can you imagine?

[CatLady]

I thought the Kardashians have quite a lot of fame.

I feel currently the media will rip apart celebs and print anything now, where it seems like in the past there was some descretion, like when Bruce/Caitlin Jenners PR person was able to convince the press not to report his gender identity.

The Lindberghs are also different in that they actually did something to be famous.

[Deleted]

I'm just shocked at the lengths people went to get a piece of the Lindberghs--even so far as to kidnap their son. I wonder if that type of thing would happen today or if they have threats but obviously don't report them to the media.

[rocksforludo]

Re: the Lindberghs fame and the kidnapping coverage

I think people also have to keep in mind that this was during the height of the Great Depression. People were in such dire straits that they sought outlets for escapism. Giant Hollywood movie musicals were super popular during this time for similar reasons. Lindbergh was the poster boy for escapism. Flight was still a new frontier, it was exotic and dramatic and he was a good-looking guy who didn't show any fear and did something heroic that appealed to young and old (unlike a Hollywood celebrity say).

The flip side of that is many people were also super desperate. Bread lines, shantytowns, Bonnie & Clyde, all of that. So the Lindberghs are these hugely visible successful people when there is very little other good news going on.

And then all of that comes crashing down when the baby is kidnapped and it's a field day like it would be if a celebrity's baby is kidnapped today. Except the Lindberghs had no PR people, no security people, no established FBI or experts on missing children to turn to. There was no blueprint for how to handle something like that.

[beebe918]

Jan 28, 2016 17:00:35 GMT -5 rocksforludo said:

Re: the Lindberghs fame and the kidnapping coverage

I think people also have to keep in mind that this was during the height of the Great Depression. People were in such dire straits that they sought outlets for escapism. Giant Hollywood movie musicals were super popular during this time for similar reasons. Lindbergh was the poster boy for escapism. Flight was still a new frontier, it was exotic and dramatic and he was a good-looking guy who didn't show any fear and did something heroic that appealed to young and old (unlike a Hollywood celebrity say).

So would you say they were pretty much the most famous?  Like more then a celebrity or anyone else because of the appeal to young and old and newness of flight?

That was my question while I was reading.  Like were they the only famous people treated that way or were all famous people treated that way?

[rocksforludo]

Jan 29, 2016 9:16:30 GMT -5 beebe918 said:

Jan 28, 2016 17:00:35 GMT -5 rocksforludo said:

Re: the Lindberghs fame and the kidnapping coverage

I think people also have to keep in mind that this was during the height of the Great Depression. People were in such dire straits that they sought outlets for escapism. Giant Hollywood movie musicals were super popular during this time for similar reasons. Lindbergh was the poster boy for escapism. Flight was still a new frontier, it was exotic and dramatic and he was a good-looking guy who didn't show any fear and did something heroic that appealed to young and old (unlike a Hollywood celebrity say).

So would you say they were pretty much the most famous?  Like more then a celebrity or anyone else because of the appeal to young and old and newness of flight?

That was my question while I was reading.  Like were they the only famous people treated that way or were all famous people treated that way?

I think Charles was above and beyond other celebrities during that time.

These are some excerpts from a biography on him:

"Once the radio announced that Lindbergh had flown over southern England, mobs formed in the heart of Paris. Thirty thousand people flocked toward the Place de l'Opera, where illuminated advertising signs flashed news bulletins. Over the next few hours, the crowds spilled into the Boulevard Poissoniere--until it became unpassable--where they expected to find the most reliable accounts of Lindbergh's progress posted in front of the Paris Matin offices. "Not since the armistice of 1918," observed one reporter, "has Paris witnessed a downright demonstration of popular enthusiasm and excitement equal to that displayed by the throngs flocking to the boulevards for news of the American flier, whose personality has captured the hearts of the Parisian multitude."

Fifteen thousand others gravitated toward the Štoile, filling the city block that surrounded a hotel because they assumed Lindbergh would be spending the night there. Many too impatient to stand around in town suddenly decided to witness the arrival. Students from the Sorbonne jammed into buses and subways. Thousands more grabbed whatever conveyance remained available, until more than ten thousand cars filled the roads between the city and Le Bourget. Before long, 150,000 people had gathered at the airfield."

and

"By that year, radio, telephones, radiographs, and the Bartlane Cable Process could transmit images and voices around the world within seconds. What was more, motion pictures had just mastered the synchronization of sound, allowing dramatic moments to be preserved in all their glory and distributed worldwide. For the first time all of civilization could share as one the sights and sounds of an event--almost instantaneously and simultaneously. And in this unusually good-looking, young aviator--of apparently impeccable character--the new technology found its first superstar.

The reception in Paris was only a harbinger of the unprecedented worship people would pay Lindbergh for years. Without either belittling or aggrandizing the importance of his flight, he considered it part of the continuum of human endeavor, and that he was, after all, only a man. The public saw more than that. Indeed, Harry Crosby felt that the stampede at Le Bourget that night represented nothing less than the start of a new religious movement--"as if all the hands in the world are ... trying to touch the new Christ and that the new Cross is the Plane." Universally admired, Charles Lindbergh became the most celebrated living person ever to walk the earth."

[sarahchrismck]

Anyone ready to discuss more?

[corrys12]

Me THREE!!!