Pride & Prejudice Discussion #1: Chapters 1-14

[peanutmuse]

Hi ladies! I volunteered to facilitate the discussions for P&P. By all means, feel free to hop in and talk about anything you choose - absolutely.

Side note: I was thinking maybe next week I would start the discussion on Thursday, if that's ok? I know sometimes the weekends aren't as busy around here. Let me know what you guys think...

Anyway, rather than ask questions or anything like that, I came up with some themes that I thought could be good places to start a discussion. I am actually heading out in about 30 minutes for the day, so this will be a post & run until later tonight for me.



Here are some possible themes for discussion of chapters 1-14:

- Pride vs. vanity, as categorized in these chapters

- Lizzie's understanding (or misunderstanding??) of Darcy's character

- Darcy's tendency to classify Lizzie as a danger

- Miss Bingley's attempts to impress/woo/manipulate Darcy

- Differing ideas on how love develops amongst the characters



Please, add others! I'll be back later tonight.

[Unknown]

I just posted this long thing and my computer frozen.

Basically Mr. Darcy is a dick.

When I come back tomorrow I'll post again.

[Unknown]

See I don't view it as humbled bragging. I just was annoyed at how highly everybody thought themselves, regardless of social standing.

Why would Lizzie be a dangerous prospect, but not Jane? Miss. Bingley and Mr. Darcy are perfect for each other, IMHO they are both annoying. I'm not finding any charm in Mr. Darcy, and Lizzie is totally justified in her hesitation of him.

I've never read P&P before, so I'm really hoping Mr. Darcy shapes up or I'm going to be disappointed. I don't find him witty or charming.

[Deleted]

Feb 8, 2015 9:44:14 GMT -5 Unknown said:

See I don't view it as humbled bragging. I just was annoyed at how highly everybody thought themselves, regardless of social standing.

Why would Lizzie be a dangerous prospect, but not Jane? Miss. Bingley and Mr. Darcy are perfect for each other, IMHO they are both annoying. I'm not finding any charm in Mr. Darcy, and Lizzie is totally justified in her hesitation of him.

I've never read P&P before, so I'm really hoping Mr. Darcy shapes up or I'm going to be disappointed. I don't find him witty or charming.

I have read it multiple times but that level of vanity was really what struck me in reading these chapters. Honestly, I like Lizzie less this time around because I noticed hers more. But I still would not wish Miss. Bingley on Darcy. Something about her is just repulsive to me.

I don't think Darcy etc approve of Jane, rather they don't consider the relationship serious enough to be a concern. And I doubt Bingley thinks of social status nearly as much as the rest of his family and friends.

[ceebug]

All I could think of while reading these chapters is how I wish the world would stop and everyone would take care of me the next time I catch a cold.

[somethingcleverer]

I'm rereading the book and the flirting by Miss Bingley stood out quite a bit more this time. I'm also cringing every time Mrs Bennett opens her mouth. I can see why someone like Mr Darcy would be cautious around the Bennett family.

[elsiemae]

Who wouldn't want someone like Mrs. Bennett as a MIL, somethingcleverer

I'm having trouble getting into this book. I think the characters are meant to be complex, but they just come off as pompous. Even the characters that aren't of high social status.

I've started this book twice, and couldn't get into it. So this is the farthest I'be gotten. But I'm determined to finish it this time. I'm hoping it picks up a bit in the upcoming chapters

[elsiemae]

Edit: double posted.

[kateisoptimistic]

I read ahead and need to go back before posting so no spoilers. But Mrs. Bennett infuriates me!!!!

[peanutmuse]

Feb 8, 2015 12:53:57 GMT -5 @juliagulia said:

Good point about Jane and mr. Bingley's status. Maybe Darcy thinks Lizzie is dangerous because she is a woman he could really fall in love with. Not just a marital arrangement which seems more common for the time.

I agree with this. The first time he mentions her being a danger, he thinks that her lower social standing will prevent him from being attracted to her, but he begins to realize that his feelings are deeper. She is a danger because she might actually make him feel something that he can't necessarily control. And self-control seems to be a sense of pride for him. (Pun intended.)

[peanutmuse]

I do not find Mr. Darcy as disagreeable as others do. For me, it has to do with how Lizzie is working at figuring him out. There are some things that she definitely "gets." But she misinterprets some things too. For example, she thinks that when he is staring at her, that it is with disdain or some other negative feeling. But we, as the readers, know that it is because he is intrigued by her and attracted to her. I feel like this is meant to show us that there is more to Darcy than meets the eye and we shouldn't be so quick to think we know him. This could end up going in any direction, certainly, but I think he's more complex than just being a plain old pompous jerk.

[peanutmuse]

How about any favorite lines so far?

This was my favorite Mrs. Bennett statement (regarding Mrs. Long): "She is a selfish, hypocritical woman, and I have no opinion of her."


Bahahaha, alrighty then.

[peanutmuse]

Feb 7, 2015 22:47:07 GMT -5 @juliagulia said:

I like how they had the term (I'm blanking on it now) for basically humble bragging. Haha.

The term was indirect boast. They talk about it in Chapter 10.

(Notes in the margin made it easy for me to find it when I needed to, for all of you writing in book naysayers, lol.)

[seamonster]

Darcy is a dick. This never gets mentioned again and is never given as a reason for Lizzie disliking Darcy after Chapter 3, and I don't understand why because this is all it would take for me to dislike a guy forever.

Bingley and Darcy talking about why Darcy isn't dancing with anyone:

"You are dancing with the only handsome girl in the room," said Mr. Darcy, looking at the eldest Miss Bennet.

"Oh! she is the most beautiful creature I ever beheld! But there is one of her sisters sitting down just behind you, who is very pretty, and I dare say very agreeable. Do let me ask my partner to introduce you."

"Which do you mean?" and turning round, he looked for a moment at Elizabeth, till catching her eye, he withdrew his own and coldly said, "She is tolerable; but not handsome enough to tempt me; and I am in no humour at present to give consequence to young ladies who are slighted by other men. You had better return to your partner and enjoy her smiles, for you are wasting your time with me."

Mr. Bingley followed his advice. Mr. Darcy walked off; and Elizabeth remained with no very cordial feelings towards him.

Pretty much Darcy says that Lizzie isn't pretty enough to dance with and she hears this and tells other people this.

[joi922]

This is my third or fourth time reading the book, and I'm really appreciating the comic relief Mr. and Mrs. Bennett provide in the story - I don't remember noticing that as much before. She's so single minded and he clearly sees the absurdity of it.

@ordinaryamy I'm also noticing I'm disliking Lizzie more this time around. Her immediate snap judgments combined with her miss-know-it-all attitude are really rubbing me the wrong way. I've actually said "stop talking!" out loud while reading her dialogue.

And I agree with many PPs that Darcy is just a dick. He doesn't want to be seen with the girl with fine eyes because other men aren't dancing with her - so that would make him look like he got the "reject" and he can't stand to be seen that way. He fully admits to being prideful, but thinks it's a good thing and defends his position. He also never forgives and honestly is stringing Ms. Bingley along. He could tell her off in no ncertain terms but instead puts up with her attempts to flirt - I believe because he thinks he's owed the attention from single young ladies of the proper class. So what's supposed to be so compelling about him?

I also think he views Lizzie as dangerous because his life is very ordered and she could throw a wrench into that. He's attracted to a woman of lower social status who speaks her mind and doesn't faun all over him. That doesn't mean he feels he has to act on the attraction, but she doesn't even fit the mold of women he thinks it would be socially acceptable for him to flirt with.

[peanutmuse]

Feb 9, 2015 6:38:40 GMT -5 seamonster said:

Darcy is a dick. This never gets mentioned again and is never given as a reason for Lizzie disliking Darcy after Chapter 3, and I don't understand why because this is all it would take for me to dislike a guy forever.

Bingley and Darcy talking about why Darcy isn't dancing with anyone:

"You are dancing with the only handsome girl in the room," said Mr. Darcy, looking at the eldest Miss Bennet.

"Oh! she is the most beautiful creature I ever beheld! But there is one of her sisters sitting down just behind you, who is very pretty, and I dare say very agreeable. Do let me ask my partner to introduce you."

"Which do you mean?" and turning round, he looked for a moment at Elizabeth, till catching her eye, he withdrew his own and coldly said, "She is tolerable; but not handsome enough to tempt me; and I am in no humour at present to give consequence to young ladies who are slighted by other men. You had better return to your partner and enjoy her smiles, for you are wasting your time with me."

Mr. Bingley followed his advice. Mr. Darcy walked off; and Elizabeth remained with no very cordial feelings towards him.

Pretty much Darcy says that Lizzie isn't pretty enough to dance with and she hears this and tells other people this.

Just out of curiosity, how would you interpret later passages when he is admiring her eyes and other things about her? Because this is pretty much exactly what I mean. She hears this and (in my opinion) bases her interpretation of Darcy on this. You said that it is never mentioned again, and it's not, but I felt like it was implied that this initial encounter was the entire basis for her opinions of him.

Continuing on my thought process about this -- as he gets to know her, she becomes more beautiful to him. I don't fault him for this, personally. We don't have to immediately fall in love with people, or even think that they are particularly beautiful. In no way am I saying that this was a nice thing to say. Absolutely not. But I guess I just see more complexity here than a simple, "he's a jerk."

[peanutmuse]

As a disclaimer to explain myself a little bit, I should tell you all that I studied a lot of British Romantic and Victorian literature while obtaining my Literature degree. (Romantic as a literary period, not the trashy romance genre lol.) It was one of my areas of interest. I learned to suspend my feminist sensibilities when reading things like this because I understand that there were different expectations and norms. If I read a modern book that had a similar dialogue, I would definitely think he was a flipping douche bag. I just hesitate to make that assumption because it's not taking into consideration societal norms -- no matter what my opinion of those norms may be.

In other words, yes, he's a jerk by my modern sensibilities. But I hesitate to write him off so quickly when I consider the context.

[Chrisse]

I have to say - I like Darcy better than Lizzie. He's blunt. She's strikes me as a bit too glib, rather than as a intelligent woman.

Maybe I'm too cynical.

We'll see how/if my opinion changes!

[kateisoptimistic]

I have never read this book before surprisingly and I have to say I really loved it. In terms of the pride vs. vanity piece I kind of don’t see the difference so far, it all seems like vanity to me. Everyone thinks quite highly of themselves.

Lizzie’s understanding of Darcy seems justified; he is quite full of himself at this point in the book and an overall dick. As he gets to know her he falls for her, but that doesn’t make him any less of a dick. I agree with above posters about Darcy considering Lizzie to be dangerous because he is intrigued by her and he sees this being an issue because of her status.

Miss Bingley is annoying and her attempts at Darcy are obvious. But I was more annoyed with how bitchy and caddy her and Mrs. Hurst are and how they just talk shit about Elizabeth and the appearance of her petticoat and how plain she is. They are like olden day mean girls, Miss Bingley is Regina George and Mrs. Hurst is Gretchen Weiners.

[elsiemae]

Feb 9, 2015 6:53:48 GMT -5 joi922 said:

This is my third or fourth time reading the book, and I'm really appreciating the comic relief Mr. and Mrs. Bennett provide in the story - I don't remember noticing that as much before. She's so single minded and he clearly sees the absurdity of it.

I love that you mentioned this:) Mrs. Bennet drives me crazy, but Mr. Bennet is probably my favorite character so far.

[kateisoptimistic]

Feb 9, 2015 10:44:47 GMT -5 elsiemae said:

Feb 9, 2015 6:53:48 GMT -5 joi922 said:

This is my third or fourth time reading the book, and I'm really appreciating the comic relief Mr. and Mrs. Bennett provide in the story - I don't remember noticing that as much before. She's so single minded and he clearly sees the absurdity of it.

I love that you mentioned this:) Mrs. Bennet drives me crazy, but Mr. Bennet is probably my favorite character so far.

Agreed, I love Mr. Bennet!

[seamonster]

Feb 9, 2015 9:13:25 GMT -5 peanutmuse said:

Feb 9, 2015 6:38:40 GMT -5 seamonster said:

Darcy is a dick. This never gets mentioned again and is never given as a reason for Lizzie disliking Darcy after Chapter 3, and I don't understand why because this is all it would take for me to dislike a guy forever.

Bingley and Darcy talking about why Darcy isn't dancing with anyone:
Pretty much Darcy says that Lizzie isn't pretty enough to dance with and she hears this and tells other people this.

Just out of curiosity, how would you interpret later passages when he is admiring her eyes and other things about her? Because this is pretty much exactly what I mean. She hears this and (in my opinion) bases her interpretation of Darcy on this. You said that it is never mentioned again, and it's not, but I felt like it was implied that this initial encounter was the entire basis for her opinions of him.

Continuing on my thought process about this -- as he gets to know her, she becomes more beautiful to him. I don't fault him for this, personally. We don't have to immediately fall in love with people, or even think that they are particularly beautiful. In no way am I saying that this was a nice thing to say. Absolutely not. But I guess I just see more complexity here than a simple, "he's a jerk."

I think he gets over his initial assessment of her and begins to like her and finds little things he likes about her.

SPOILER: Click to show

Later on in the book, she never says anything to him about the whole incident at the ball. Not that she doesn't end up with other reasons to dislike him, but the fact that he said she wasn't pretty enough just a few months earlier doesn't factor into that.

I think pride and vanity are both big parts of Darcy and Lizzie's personalities. Darcy does originally see the Bennetts as beneath him and his friends because of the family, wealth, and social standing, but at the same time Lizzie doesn't see that there might be any issues with her family, wealth, or social standing.

Mr. Bennett, and later Charlotte, are my favorite characters. I agree about Mrs. Bennett being ridiculous.

[peanutmuse]

seamonster -- re: the spoiler, that doesn't really change what I said, though.

[seamonster]

Feb 9, 2015 11:32:40 GMT -5 peanutmuse said:

seamonster -- re: the spoiler, that doesn't really change what I said, though.

Maybe not. I just felt that it was glossed over and forgotten after that scene. But I do agree with you on why he sees her as a danger.

[peanutmuse]

Feb 9, 2015 14:02:50 GMT -5 seamonster said:

Feb 9, 2015 11:32:40 GMT -5 peanutmuse said:

seamonster -- re: the spoiler, that doesn't really change what I said, though.

Maybe not. I just felt that it was glossed over and forgotten after that scene. But I do agree with you on why he sees her as a danger.

This is kind of a spin off question. Do you think it was forgotten by Lizzie or by Austen? What I mean is, it was a pretty mean thing to say, especially since it was clear that he didn't care if Lizzie heard him or not. So do you think the fact that it's not mentioned has some sort of significance... or is it possible that Austen didn't think it was as important as we might think it is? I don't know the answer, it's just an interesting thing to think about.

[Unknown]

Feb 9, 2015 15:32:53 GMT -5 peanutmuse said:

Feb 9, 2015 14:02:50 GMT -5 seamonster said:

Maybe not. I just felt that it was glossed over and forgotten after that scene. But I do agree with you on why he sees her as a danger.

This is kind of a spin off question. Do you think it was forgotten by Lizzie or by Austen? What I mean is, it was a pretty mean thing to say, especially since it was clear that he didn't care if Lizzie heard him or not. So do you think the fact that it's not mentioned has some sort of significance... or is it possible that Austen didn't think it was as important as we might think it is? I don't know the answer, it's just an interesting thing to think about.

That's the kind of thing that really bothers me. I know they eventually fall in love, but I would not be ok with that. Is it the time period when women in general aren't respected and they disregard comments like that.

p.s. sorry I bailed on the convo I had rough weekend.

[tribute17]

Feb 10, 2015 9:48:36 GMT -5 Unknown said:

Feb 9, 2015 15:32:53 GMT -5 peanutmuse said:

This is kind of a spin off question. Do you think it was forgotten by Lizzie or by Austen? What I mean is, it was a pretty mean thing to say, especially since it was clear that he didn't care if Lizzie heard him or not. So do you think the fact that it's not mentioned has some sort of significance... or is it possible that Austen didn't think it was as important as we might think it is? I don't know the answer, it's just an interesting thing to think about.

That's the kind of thing that really bothers me. I know they eventually fall in love, but I would not be ok with that. Is it the time period when women in general aren't respected and they disregard comments like that.

p.s. sorry I bailed on the convo I had rough weekend.

sweetc129 sorry you had a rough weekend, hope everything is ok.  

On the note about his comment:  I'm a pretty forgiving person and it would be hard for me to forget something like that but first impressions are so wrong sometimes, and I think Lizzie will eventually realize that it was more complicated.  It's very hard to just write-off someone by one comment and I agree that maybe they (Austen and Lizzie) didn't think it was as big of a deal.  I think he will eventually redeem himself, or I hope anyway.  

[Unknown]

Feb 10, 2015 12:07:59 GMT -5 tribute17 said:

Feb 10, 2015 9:48:36 GMT -5 Unknown said:

That's the kind of thing that really bothers me. I know they eventually fall in love, but I would not be ok with that. Is it the time period when women in general aren't respected and they disregard comments like that.

p.s. sorry I bailed on the convo I had rough weekend.

sweetc129 sorry you had a rough weekend, hope everything is ok.  

On the note about his comment:  I'm a pretty forgiving person and it would be hard for me to forget something like that but first impressions are so wrong sometimes, and I think Lizzie will eventually realize that it was more complicated.  It's very hard to just write-off someone by one comment and I agree that maybe they (Austen and Lizzie) didn't think it was as big of a deal.  I think he will eventually redeem himself, or I hope anyway.  

Thank you.

I second the bolded. Everybody is all about Mr. Darcy, but so far I don't like him and have a hard time believing I am going to come to like him.

[setsuna17]

I too am finding it so much more funny this time. I read it when I was very young (probably 15 or 16) so I don't think I understood the humor enough. I'm listening to it as my first audiobook and it's great. I'm actually sad when I get home from work and have to stop listening!

As for the characters:
Miss Bingley is ridiculous and Mrs. Bennett makes me cringe. They both are awful. I can only imagine how Lady Catherine will be later. Lizzie seems very glib to me as well. And her stubbornness annoys me. I know the book is all about First Impressions (the original title) and how they are wrong but her willful refusal to think any good about Mr. Darcy irritates me. I know that Darcy is a dick in the beginning, but when you see him actually saying nice things to her and then she doesn't even acknowledge it, it's annoying.

But I am extremely biased. Mr. Darcy is my dream man. I am in that camp and will be so forever.

As for why Darcy does not find Jane to be dangerous, just read on.

SPOILER: Click to show

He does and warns Bingley away from her!

But I have to agree that he finds Lizzie so dangerous because she is making him feel something he doesn't want to.

[seamonster]

Thinking about the scene where Miss Bingley uses walking around the room with Lizzie to get Darcy's attention, maybe Lizzie does forget about what he said. Or thinks he know longer means what he said.