I think men and women should be on equal footing. That doesn't mean we should totally wipe the planet of all gender-based references (I am still going to describe some things as "girly"), but equal pay, equal rights, and mutual respect and responsibility in relationships and the workplace are important to me.
Post by PepperPottsJ on Sept 15, 2016 7:41:30 GMT -5
I'm in a meeting so when I get flamed I didn't run... I will be back:
I guess egalitarianism. I think the feminist movement did amazing things! However at some point it went a smidgen too far and created unrealistic expectations for us to live up to in today's global landscape.
Tl;dr - I respect what the amazing women and men before us fought for, immensely, but can't we not at this point? Let me go to work to do my job as me, not a male or female.
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I would gladly call myself a feminist. In my mind, feminism = egalitarianism. I understand that feminism has a negative connotation (and I really wish it didn't), but I think the general concept comes from the same place.
Yes, I am a feminist. There are extremists that give it a "bad name" or whatever, but any group has that and I don't think those should invalidate the whole movement.
That said, there are a lot of issues with feminism historically in how it's treated women of color, and I struggle with that when figuring out how to identify myself.
So is saying "all lives matter" and being egalitarian the same? Should we put more emphasis on being feminist just like the black lives matter groups out more emphasis on black lives because there is disparity?
Disclaimer: I am not equating the struggle of black people being killed with not being paid an equal wage, just more of a concept comparison
I do get twitchy when people say we don't need people fighting for feminism (or whatever you choose to call it) anymore (not saying anyone in this thread is saying that). We still don't get paid enough, rape culture is horrific, and the STEM areas continue to be a minefield.
Maybe it's because I've spent a lot of time in tech, a notoriously irritating place to be a woman (or anything other than a white, middle-class male, really).
So is saying "all lives matter" and being egalitarian the same? Should we put more emphasis on being feminist just like the black lives matter groups out more emphasis on black lives because there is disparity?
Disclaimer: I am not equating the struggle of black people being killed with not being paid an equal wage, just more of a concept comparison
Re "all lives matter": I don't think so. All Lives Matter is a shitty effort to shut down valid outrage and a valid movement. Whereas egalitarian is just saying everyone should be equal.
I'm not sure what you mean by putting more emphasis on things... "we" being women in general?
So is saying "all lives matter" and being egalitarian the same? Should we put more emphasis on being feminist just like the black lives matter groups out more emphasis on black lives because there is disparity?
Disclaimer: I am not equating the struggle of black people being killed with not being paid an equal wage, just more of a concept comparison
That's an interesting point but I'm inclined to think that the "all lives matter" supporters don't actually believe that all people are equal... Refusing to recognize that there is disparity does not make it go away.
Yes, I am a feminist. There are extremists that give it a "bad name" or whatever, but any group has that and I don't think those should invalidate the whole movement.
That said, there are a lot of issues with feminism historically in how it's treated women of color, and I struggle with that when figuring out how to identify myself.
Are you a POC?
I would be interested to hear the perspective any POC on this board would be willing to offer on the bolded (I realize that is a really white thing of me to do but I genuinely am trying to learn/understand).
So is saying "all lives matter" and being egalitarian the same? Should we put more emphasis on being feminist just like the black lives matter groups out more emphasis on black lives because there is disparity?
Disclaimer: I am not equating the struggle of black people being killed with not being paid an equal wage, just more of a concept comparison
Re "all lives matter": I don't think so. All Lives Matter is a shitty effort to shut down valid outrage and a valid movement. Whereas egalitarian is just saying everyone should be equal.
I'm not sure what you mean by putting more emphasis on things... "we" being women in general?
Emphasizing that there is a huge difference between how men and women are treated not just a call for everyone to be treated the same, which is great obviously, but I don't think a lot of people even acknowledge there are issues in the first place.
Random example of sexism but I was watching a special on Netflix (Chef's Plate maybe?) and there was a female chef that worked in a closed off room because people legit wouldn't eat her food and think it was Michelin star worthy because she's a woman. I thought, that's some shit. Those same people probably expect women to cook at home but God forbid they decide to become one of the best in the world.
And I kind of do agree with putting more emphasis on being feminists. I get the feeling of not wanting to be associated with some of the over-the-top feminists but I think if more "regular" (for a lack of a better word) women AND men identified as feminists, we can counter the bad rep.
Yes, I am a feminist. There are extremists that give it a "bad name" or whatever, but any group has that and I don't think those should invalidate the whole movement.
That said, there are a lot of issues with feminism historically in how it's treated women of color, and I struggle with that when figuring out how to identify myself.
Are you a POC?
I would be interested to hear the perspective any POC on this board would be willing to offer on the bolded (I realize that is a really white thing of me to do but I genuinely am trying to learn/understand).
I am not—this is something I've gathered from reading/listening to WOC in the space. From my understanding, a lot of "classical feminism" (not sure if that's the right term, I am so not a scholar) hasn't looked a lot at intersectionality.
Re "all lives matter": I don't think so. All Lives Matter is a shitty effort to shut down valid outrage and a valid movement. Whereas egalitarian is just saying everyone should be equal.
I'm not sure what you mean by putting more emphasis on things... "we" being women in general?
Emphasizing that there is a huge difference between how men and women are treated not just a call for everyone to be treated the same, which is great obviously, but I don't think a lot of people even acknowledge there are issues in the first place.
Ah, okay. I think there are efforts, but I'm not sure how to do something more concentrated. The coverage of Hillary has been extremely disheartening to me (including by my "liberal" male Berner friends who horrified me with their sexism).
I would be interested to hear the perspective any POC on this board would be willing to offer on the bolded (I realize that is a really white thing of me to do but I genuinely am trying to learn/understand).
I am not—this is something I've gathered from reading/listening to WOC in the space. From my understanding, a lot of "classical feminism" (not sure if that's the right term, I am so not a scholar) hasn't looked a lot at intersectionality.
This doesn't surprise me. More of a let us tackle the big issue first and we'll get to you later type of mentality.
I am not—this is something I've gathered from reading/listening to WOC in the space. From my understanding, a lot of "classical feminism" (not sure if that's the right term, I am so not a scholar) hasn't looked a lot at intersectionality.
This doesn't surprise me. More of a let us tackle the big issue first and we'll get to you later type of mentality.
Random example of sexism but I was watching a special on Netflix (Chef's Plate maybe?) and there was a female chef that worked in a closed off room because people legit wouldn't eat her food and think it was Michelin star worthy because she's a woman. I thought, that's some shit. Those same people probably expect women to cook at home but God forbid they decide to become one of the best in the world.
Here is where I get irritated, though. Why is she letting this happen? Was she aware of this? If so, what a shame.
Random example of sexism but I was watching a special on Netflix (Chef's Plate maybe?) and there was a female chef that worked in a closed off room because people legit wouldn't eat her food and think it was Michelin star worthy because she's a woman. I thought, that's some shit. Those same people probably expect women to cook at home but God forbid they decide to become one of the best in the world.
Here is where I get irritated, though. Why is she letting this happen? Was she aware of this? If so, what a shame.
She was definitely aware but wanted her food to be the emphasis, not her sex. I think it's a fine line for her because it's how she makes money yet she allows it to continue.
I guess I am technically a WOC, but there is varying scale of discrimination relative to the varying shades of color (which is as dumb as it sounds), and I cannot even pretend to understand the struggle of a black woman in this country, in the past and present.
Post by bibliothecary on Sept 15, 2016 8:24:26 GMT -5
I'm sure it will shock precisely no one that I am a feminist. Feminism is the radical notion that women are people.
I think that, straight from the beginning, people who benefit from gender inequality have worked very hard to make feminism a dirty word. If you look at the early worrying about suffragettes, you see the same bullshit that we deal with today. Feminists are unwomanly, man haters, want women to rule, destroying the family, fat, ugly, etc. The same things have been said for decades.
I refuse to abandon the term just because there has been a concerted effort to scare women away from it. To abandon the term is to abandon the cause. Do I love everything about feminism? No. Until recently, it has largely reflected the desires and needs of white women. Not trans women, not POC, not gay women, not sex workers, and often, not men. Feminism is evolving, though, and I'm excited for what it is becoming.
I am not am egalitarianist. Mainly because no one mentions egalitarianism until someone mentions feminism. It's the same damn thing, only egalitarianism doesn't scare people because there hasn't been the same effort to demonize the word. But, honestly, I never see an egalitarianism march. Or rally. Or really, anything. That's feminism, getting shit done. So yes, I am a feminist. Always will be. It's my word and I'm not letting anyone take it from me.
Random example of sexism but I was watching a special on Netflix (Chef's Plate maybe?) and there was a female chef that worked in a closed off room because people legit wouldn't eat her food and think it was Michelin star worthy because she's a woman. I thought, that's some shit. Those same people probably expect women to cook at home but God forbid they decide to become one of the best in the world.
Here is where I get irritated, though. Why is she letting this happen? Was she aware of this? If so, what a shame.
Well I think that's the problem. She's probably *letting* it happen because to her it's a choice between: 1. Say fuck them and cook in their faces (prove her point) and never win a Michelin star OR 2. Cook in the room where they don't see her (and can assume she's prolly a man - super superior) and win a Michelin star
Which is the type of choice that women face all of the time. Stand up for what you believe in and get shit on or stay quiet and get the accolades you deserve.
I guess I am technically a WOC, but there is varying scale of discrimination relative to the varying shades of color (which is as dumb as it sounds), and I cannot even pretend to understand the struggle of a black woman in this country, in the past and present.
A smaller, less talked about problem which is definitely part of the bigger problem, for sure.
Random example of sexism but I was watching a special on Netflix (Chef's Plate maybe?) and there was a female chef that worked in a closed off room because people legit wouldn't eat her food and think it was Michelin star worthy because she's a woman. I thought, that's some shit. Those same people probably expect women to cook at home but God forbid they decide to become one of the best in the world.
Here is where I get irritated, though. Why is she letting this happen? Was she aware of this? If so, what a shame.
But isn't that the whole point? Why should she have to make a choice between professional accomplishment that I'm sure she's worked very hard for and making a statement against sexism?
Here is where I get irritated, though. Why is she letting this happen? Was she aware of this? If so, what a shame.
Well I think that's the problem. She's probably *letting* it happen because to her it's a choice between: 1. Say fuck them and cook in their faces (prove her point) and never win a Michelin star OR 2. Cook in the room where they don't see her (and can assume she's prolly a man - super superior) and win a Michelin star
Which is the type of choice that women face all of the time. Stand up for what you believe in and get shit on or stay quiet and get the accolades you deserve.
I'm getting a better picture of what this show is. I was thinking more along the lines of a documentary. Haha.
It's hard to say what the best approach is. It's her decision. It just doesn't support the message at all. And I'm not saying it's an easy thing to do. Just depends what your priorities are.
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