Here is where I get irritated, though. Why is she letting this happen? Was she aware of this? If so, what a shame.
But isn't that the whole point? Why should she have to make a choice between professional accomplishment that I'm sure she's worked very hard for and making a statement against sexism?
I mean, duh. That's the goal, of course. But how do you get there?
I think an interesting debate is between what most people commenting here seem to consider feminism (equal pay, etc) and old school (or sometimes conservative) "protectionist" feminism (women need extra help).
I'd call myself a feminist, but I don't think you can just level the playing field right now in terms of opportunity and call it equal. There is too much cultural and institutional sexism at play for that to work.
I think some little bits of protectionism are necessary - help women overcome the forces in society that make STEM fields, law, etc. boys' clubs. But if you base protectionism in women's inherent nature that they "need" protecting by men - that's chauvinistic by nature.
Yes, I'm a feminist, and proud of it. Come at me, bro.
Well I think that's the problem. She's probably *letting* it happen because to her it's a choice between: 1. Say fuck them and cook in their faces (prove her point) and never win a Michelin star OR 2. Cook in the room where they don't see her (and can assume she's prolly a man - super superior) and win a Michelin star
Which is the type of choice that women face all of the time. Stand up for what you believe in and get shit on or stay quiet and get the accolades you deserve.
I'm getting a better picture of what this show is. I was thinking more along the lines of a documentary. Haha.
It's hard to say what the best approach is. It's her decision. It just doesn't support the message at all. And I'm not saying it's an easy thing to do. Just depends what your priorities are.
This is a decision between personal equality of outcome and activism. While I think activism is awesome, I don't necessarily fault everyone for not jumping at the chance to be an activist every single time.
If you look at people who play the game to get to the top, THEN come out against sexism (or anything else), sometimes they're in a better position to actually change minds and hearts at that point. I don't know. But I think faulting her for finding a way to undermine the system is basically faulting her for being a victim. We need some women at the top to change hearts and minds, and if it takes some subterfuge to get some women there to shake it up ("wait, this is awesome, I thought it was a man, it's a woman, maybe my assumptions are wrong?"), then have at it.
Tl;dr I feel like blaming women for not being activists could be victim-blaming, and we need some ladies to infiltrate from the inside.
But isn't that the whole point? Why should she have to make a choice between professional accomplishment that I'm sure she's worked very hard for and making a statement against sexism?
I mean, duh. That's the goal, of course. But how do you get there?
I don't have all the answers. I have many, but not all.
I think she could've chosen to make a statement and accepted the sacrifice that comes with that decision, and hopefully get a conversation started. But I also think that's a difficult choice to make and not really fair to blame her for not making that decision for herself. And more than likely, she could have declined to do it, and they would've just found someone else (man or woman, I have no idea what the premise of this show is) to take her place, and no one would have know a thing about it.
Oh, and I'm a feminist if that wasn't apparent. I think the process needs to be more radical than just wanting everyone to be equal. I have been told to smile way too many times by male co-workers to get on board with Egalitarianism.
I'm getting a better picture of what this show is. I was thinking more along the lines of a documentary. Haha.
It's hard to say what the best approach is. It's her decision. It just doesn't support the message at all. And I'm not saying it's an easy thing to do. Just depends what your priorities are.
This is a decision between personal equality of outcome and activism. While I think activism is awesome, I don't necessarily fault everyone for not jumping at the chance to be an activist every single time.
If you look at people who play the game to get to the top, THEN come out against sexism (or anything else), sometimes they're in a better position to actually change minds and hearts at that point. I don't know. But I think faulting her for finding a way to undermine the system is basically faulting her for being a victim. We need some women at the top to change hearts and minds, and if it takes some subterfuge to get some women there to shake it up ("wait, this is awesome, I thought it was a man, it's a woman, maybe my assumptions are wrong?"), then have at it.
Tl;dr I feel like blaming women for not being activists could be victim-blaming, and we need some ladies to infiltrate from the inside.
Well, I'm certainly not victim-blaming. I don't think she deserves to be treated unfairly. It's not her fault that people go in with the opinions they do. I'm just challenging the "what do you do about it" part.
I consider myself a feminist but have a hard time defining it for myself and others. I guess I view it as the right to equality and choice. The choice one is big for me. Choice of partner, where to live/how to live, career choices and opportunities, sexual and reproductive health. I can never explain it in the right words so I hope that makes sense.
I remember being extremely hurt by my mom a few years ago when she said there was no way I could be a feminist because I was a SAHM. That cut. I had to explain that it was my choice to do, and MH and society aren't determining it and that the ability of having that choice is through work of past feminist who paved the way for women to have the right to choose. We still don't see eye to eye and it's hard sometimes to have conversations with her about the subject.
This is a decision between personal equality of outcome and activism. While I think activism is awesome, I don't necessarily fault everyone for not jumping at the chance to be an activist every single time.
If you look at people who play the game to get to the top, THEN come out against sexism (or anything else), sometimes they're in a better position to actually change minds and hearts at that point. I don't know. But I think faulting her for finding a way to undermine the system is basically faulting her for being a victim. We need some women at the top to change hearts and minds, and if it takes some subterfuge to get some women there to shake it up ("wait, this is awesome, I thought it was a man, it's a woman, maybe my assumptions are wrong?"), then have at it.
Tl;dr I feel like blaming women for not being activists could be victim-blaming, and we need some ladies to infiltrate from the inside.
Well, I'm certainly not victim-blaming. I don't think she deserves to be treated unfairly. It's not her fault that people go in with the opinions they do. I'm just challenging the "what do you do about it" part.
Not saying you are or anyone else is. Tried to write the above in a way that wasn't implying that - I just think saying she is doing something wrong by not sacrificing professional accomplishment by taking on the feminist mantle requires the same thoughtful restraint as blaming a victim does. Sometimes it's justified, but sometimes it's blaming her for a system she has no control over.
Also not saying anyone in here is not being thoughtful. Just throwing a viewpoint out there for debate I like debate!
It's a really tough question: what responsibility does a woman have to represent her sex as a whole? Is requiring her to do so (or blaming her if she doesn't) requiring something of her just like sexism would require her to play a certain role?
I remember being extremely hurt by my mom a few years ago when she said there was no way I could be a feminist because I was a SAHM. That cut. I had to explain that it was my choice to do, and MH and society aren't determining it and that the ability of having that choice is through work of past feminist who paved the way for women to have the right to choose. We still don't see eye to eye and it's hard sometimes to have conversations with her about the subject.
Right there with you. What I find interesting is that, when asked what I do, I say that I help run a forum, as if my choice to stay home and raise a feminist-minded son isn't a valid one. I'm still mentally working on being okay with my choice to be a SAHM, and that's the bullshit that society has heaped on me.
I remember being extremely hurt by my mom a few years ago when she said there was no way I could be a feminist because I was a SAHM. That cut. I had to explain that it was my choice to do, and MH and society aren't determining it and that the ability of having that choice is through work of past feminist who paved the way for women to have the right to choose. We still don't see eye to eye and it's hard sometimes to have conversations with her about the subject.
Right there with you. What I find interesting is that, when asked what I do, I say that I help run a forum, as if my choice to stay home and raise a feminist-minded son isn't a valid one. I'm still mentally working on being okay with my choice to be a SAHM, and that's the bullshit that society has heaped on me.
It took me years to stop answering the question "what do you do?" with "I'm a teacher but I just stay home with my son". Now I answer with I'm a SAHM but was previously a teacher if they want to know what I did before hand.
I consider myself a feminist but have a hard time defining it for myself and others. I guess I view it as the right to equality and choice. The choice one is big for me. Choice of partner, where to live/how to live, career choices and opportunities, sexual and reproductive health. I can never explain it in the right words so I hope that makes sense.
I remember being extremely hurt by my mom a few years ago when she said there was no way I could be a feminist because I was a SAHM. That cut. I had to explain that it was my choice to do, and MH and society aren't determining it and that the ability of having that choice is through work of past feminist who paved the way for women to have the right to choose. We still don't see eye to eye and it's hard sometimes to have conversations with her about the subject.
So much this. Being a working mom is not feminist. Being a SAHM is not anti-feminist. Being forced to SAH because it's the cultural norm, when you would rather do something else, is sexist. Having and exercising a choice about which route you take, via rational and equal discussion with your significant other if applicable, is feminist.
"Women should be able to work" is always too narrow, and alienates people who are also feminists but make different choices. "Women should be able to choose" should be the mantra.
Goes toward my earlier point - women should be able to choose whether to be an activist or not.
As you can see I have lots of feels about this.
ETA now dying because I used the wrong "too/to" (I also have feels about grammar)
I remember being extremely hurt by my mom a few years ago when she said there was no way I could be a feminist because I was a SAHM. That cut. I had to explain that it was my choice to do, and MH and society aren't determining it and that the ability of having that choice is through work of past feminist who paved the way for women to have the right to choose. We still don't see eye to eye and it's hard sometimes to have conversations with her about the subject.
Right there with you. What I find interesting is that, when asked what I do, I say that I help run a forum, as if my choice to stay home and raise a feminist-minded son isn't a valid one. I'm still mentally working on being okay with my choice to be a SAHM, and that's the bullshit that society has heaped on me.
I consider myself a feminist but have a hard time defining it for myself and others. I guess I view it as the right to equality and choice. The choice one is big for me. Choice of partner, where to live/how to live, career choices and opportunities, sexual and reproductive health. I can never explain it in the right words so I hope that makes sense.
I remember being extremely hurt by my mom a few years ago when she said there was no way I could be a feminist because I was a SAHM. That cut. I had to explain that it was my choice to do, and MH and society aren't determining it and that the ability of having that choice is through work of past feminist who paved the way for women to have the right to choose. We still don't see eye to eye and it's hard sometimes to have conversations with her about the subject.
So much this. Being a working mom is not feminist. Being a SAHM is not anti-feminist. Being forced to SAH because it's the cultural norm, when you would rather do something else, is sexist. Having and exercising a choice about which route you take, via rational and equal discussion with your significant other if applicable, is feminist.
"Women should be able to work" is always to narrow, and alienates people who are also feminists but make different choices. "Women should be able to choose" should be the mantra.
Goes toward my earlier point - women should be able to choose whether to be an activist or not.
I'd like to consider myself a feminist. I don't really consider myself a WOC, though, because while I technically am, I must "pass" or something. I do not feel like my experiences reflect the hardship and inequity that a typical WOC face.
Looping in to the chef chat, I don't think there's any shame in her playing the system. Like someone else said, not everyone needs to sign up to be an activist. I view "fighting the good fight" on this much like I view the "responsibility" of loss parents destigmatizing losses. Or infertile couples destigmatizing infertility. It's not everyone's cup of tea. If you can, do. If you can't, it's cool. I got your back.
I just want to be treated with the same respect and dignity as everyone else. I want my choices to be supported, not judged. I want to be compensated fairly for the work I do or the actions I perform. I want to be seen as a human first and a woman second.
I consider myself a feminist but have a hard time defining it for myself and others. I guess I view it as the right to equality and choice. The choice one is big for me. Choice of partner, where to live/how to live, career choices and opportunities, sexual and reproductive health. I can never explain it in the right words so I hope that makes sense.
I remember being extremely hurt by my mom a few years ago when she said there was no way I could be a feminist because I was a SAHM. That cut. I had to explain that it was my choice to do, and MH and society aren't determining it and that the ability of having that choice is through work of past feminist who paved the way for women to have the right to choose. We still don't see eye to eye and it's hard sometimes to have conversations with her about the subject.
So much this. Being a working mom is not feminist. Being a SAHM is not anti-feminist. Being forced to SAH because it's the cultural norm, when you would rather do something else, is sexist. Having and exercising a choice about which route you take, via rational and equal discussion with your significant other if applicable, is feminist.
"Women should be able to work" is always to narrow, and alienates people who are also feminists but make different choices. "Women should be able to choose" should be the mantra.
Goes toward my earlier point - women should be able to choose whether to be an activist or not.
I'd like to consider myself a feminist. I don't really consider myself a WOC, though, because while I technically am, I must "pass" or something. I do not feel like my experiences reflect the hardship and inequity that a typical WOC face.
Looping in to the chef chat, I don't think there's any shame in her playing the system. Like someone else said, not everyone needs to sign up to be an activist. I view "fighting the good fight" on this much like I view the "responsibility" of loss parents destigmatizing losses. Or infertile couples destigmatizing infertility. It's not everyone's cup of tea. If you can, do. If you can't, it's cool. I got your back.
I just want to be treated with the same respect and dignity as everyone else. I want my choices to be supported, not judged. I want to be compensated fairly for the work I do or the actions I perform. I want to be seen as a human first and a woman second.
I don't game with people other than MH so I haven't seen that side of things but do you play online and if so, do they know you're a woman and treat you differently?
I'd like to consider myself a feminist. I don't really consider myself a WOC, though, because while I technically am, I must "pass" or something. I do not feel like my experiences reflect the hardship and inequity that a typical WOC face.
Looping in to the chef chat, I don't think there's any shame in her playing the system. Like someone else said, not everyone needs to sign up to be an activist. I view "fighting the good fight" on this much like I view the "responsibility" of loss parents destigmatizing losses. Or infertile couples destigmatizing infertility. It's not everyone's cup of tea. If you can, do. If you can't, it's cool. I got your back.
I just want to be treated with the same respect and dignity as everyone else. I want my choices to be supported, not judged. I want to be compensated fairly for the work I do or the actions I perform. I want to be seen as a human first and a woman second.
I don't game with people other than MH so I haven't seen that side of things but do you play online and if so, do they know you're a woman and treat you differently?
Post by risscaboobs on Sept 15, 2016 9:26:04 GMT -5
Wow. We have some really eloquent ladies here. I don't think I'm really going to be able to state my views any better. Yes. I am a feminist. I do not hate men. I just want equal treatment and for our decisions to not be judged. I don't want to be viewed as weak because I am a woman. I do not want to be told that I need to loosen up or I am a bitch because I don't respond to some rando flirting or catcalling me. Mostly, I'm just over the double standards.
I'd like to consider myself a feminist. I don't really consider myself a WOC, though, because while I technically am, I must "pass" or something. I do not feel like my experiences reflect the hardship and inequity that a typical WOC face.
Looping in to the chef chat, I don't think there's any shame in her playing the system. Like someone else said, not everyone needs to sign up to be an activist. I view "fighting the good fight" on this much like I view the "responsibility" of loss parents destigmatizing losses. Or infertile couples destigmatizing infertility. It's not everyone's cup of tea. If you can, do. If you can't, it's cool. I got your back.
I just want to be treated with the same respect and dignity as everyone else. I want my choices to be supported, not judged. I want to be compensated fairly for the work I do or the actions I perform. I want to be seen as a human first and a woman second.
I don't game with people other than MH so I haven't seen that side of things but do you play online and if so, do they know you're a woman and treat you differently?
MH really struggles sometimes with being sexist and has had a big learning curve since we got married. The other day he talked about how manly the decathlon was and said, "you know what I mean?" I was alike, how Cana sport where men and women both compete be manly? Also he referred to Hillary as old and sign realize Trump is two years older.
He's badass about admitting his mistakes though and actively asks me how to be better so I never mind our discussions and enjoy taking to him about it.
This is a great topic. Like many here, I struggle with defining feminism. I would call myself a feminist in that I feel women should have equal opportunities, pay, and choice. Feminism to me is not about women first, or women over men. It's about women being seen as equal to men and being able to make their own choices.
I also work in the tech industry and have seen a fair amount of ridiculous things. Heard many first-hand experiences as well.
MH really struggles sometimes with being sexist and has had a big learning curve since we got married. The other day he talked about how manly the decathlon was and said, "you know what I mean?" I was alike, how Cana sport where men and women both compete be manly? Also he referred to Hillary as old and sign realize Trump is two years older.
He's badass about admitting his mistakes though and actively asks me how to be better so I never mind our discussions and enjoy taking to him about it.
MH also struggles with this. He isn't as great at noticing though.
Well, I'm certainly not victim-blaming. I don't think she deserves to be treated unfairly. It's not her fault that people go in with the opinions they do. I'm just challenging the "what do you do about it" part.
*snip*
It's a really tough question: what responsibility does a woman have to represent her sex as a whole? Is requiring her to do so (or blaming her if she doesn't) requiring something of her just like sexism would require her to play a certain role?
This is a great question. I don't think anyone is required to do anything. If you can and are willing to put yourself out there for the movement, fantastic! If you can't for whatever reason, that's okay. No judgement on my part. However, if you are a woman actively working against feminism, I will give you the side-eye after first trying to understand how you're defining it (since there seems to be some grey area there).
To go further, it's super frustrating to me that sometimes women have to choose whether to play the rules of the game to get ahead personally, or to take a stand for the greater movement and take a hit. There are examples of those who played their way to the top and then help the movement, but I wish there was another way to do this without compromising on principles. Any thoughts on that?
MH really struggles sometimes with being sexist and has had a big learning curve since we got married. The other day he talked about how manly the decathlon was and said, "you know what I mean?" I was alike, how Cana sport where men and women both compete be manly? Also he referred to Hillary as old and sign realize Trump is two years older.
He's badass about admitting his mistakes though and actively asks me how to be better so I never mind our discussions and enjoy taking to him about it.
MH also struggles with this. He isn't as great at noticing though.
LOL I was about to say MH is this but with zero self awareness.
I'd like to consider myself a feminist. I don't really consider myself a WOC, though, because while I technically am, I must "pass" or something. I do not feel like my experiences reflect the hardship and inequity that a typical WOC face.
Looping in to the chef chat, I don't think there's any shame in her playing the system. Like someone else said, not everyone needs to sign up to be an activist. I view "fighting the good fight" on this much like I view the "responsibility" of loss parents destigmatizing losses. Or infertile couples destigmatizing infertility. It's not everyone's cup of tea. If you can, do. If you can't, it's cool. I got your back.
I just want to be treated with the same respect and dignity as everyone else. I want my choices to be supported, not judged. I want to be compensated fairly for the work I do or the actions I perform. I want to be seen as a human first and a woman second.
I don't game with people other than MH so I haven't seen that side of things but do you play online and if so, do they know you're a woman and treat you differently?
In terms of online multiplayer gaming, I don't often play games with my gender on my sleeve. I don't hide it, it just doesn't come up much. That, and I play with my friends, who obviously dgaf.
But. When it has come out it that I'm not a stereotypical dudebro, yes, I am typically treated differently. Most of the time, it's as a weapon to use against each other. "Dude, even the chick is beating you," kind of deal.
In person, when I'd go with H to his gaming club in college, was a hugely different story. LOTS of awkwardness and patronizing. They played games I wasn't really into (fighting games, like street fighter), so I'd usually just hang. They were nice enough guys, but they obviously didn't know how to treat a female gamer. Which is to say, exactly like each other.
Other types of games that I've been affected by are things like Magic: The Gathering. I was always seen as an easy target because I was a girl (turns out I am in fact an easy target, but that's because I suck). One of my friends, however, had many of the same experiences and often placed in the top 8 (prize places) of every tournament. Many of them, she won.
Stating that I play or am into D&D has gotten me looks, too.
Yeah, socially accepted sexism is very well in gaming, too.
MH really struggles sometimes with being sexist and has had a big learning curve since we got married. The other day he talked about how manly the decathlon was and said, "you know what I mean?" I was alike, how Cana sport where men and women both compete be manly? Also he referred to Hillary as old and sign realize Trump is two years older.
He's badass about admitting his mistakes though and actively asks me how to be better so I never mind our discussions and enjoy taking to him about it.
MH also struggles with this. He isn't as great at noticing though.
MH struggles with recognizing what I've heard called micro-sexism. The small things which people (usually) don't consciously think about. I've started to point them out to him. Things like when women and girls are called "bossy" but men/boys aren't, or how women are constantly told to smile but men aren't. He's starting to realize how much of it goes on in every day life.
Then Comes Family, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising
program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com.