I was spanked as a child and we will never ever hit our children (no swatting/spanking/whatever it's called).
My argument against it is pretty simple: It's not a humane or rational punishment for an adult, so it should never be for a child. When I was 16 I lied about where I was with friends and got caught. I got in trouble, and my parents grounded me for a weekend from a very important (to me) school dance. I remember BEGGING them to just spank me or hit me so I could go. I could heal a sore ass or whatever, but I couldn't make up the time lost with friends (they didn't of course, as I hadn't been spanked in years, but I think they realized the point I was making).
Think about it. If we gave criminals a choice, most would choose a beating (even a severe beating) over years in jail. It only serves to physically and emotionally hurt someone, but it doesn't truly "punish" which is why our criminal justice system no longer uses that form of punishment (we don't put people in the stockade or cut off hands for stealing anymore!).
DS is almost 13 and I have never laid a hand on him. He has most certainly been punished. It takes work. Grounding a kid or taking away privileges sucks. It can suck for the whole family. I honestly think spanking would be "easier" than dealing with a kid who is grounded or changing family plans because a child needs to be restricted from a fun activity. But IMO it's not effective. Taking away his cell phone, or his Xbox? REALLY effective.
I live in the Southeast USA and spanking is very common here. It is even allowed in schools. I once saw a child hit is brother in a store and the mother swatted him and yelled "no hitting!". I could not wrap my brain around that. Don't hit!.... yet I'm hitting you! I just don't get it.
I was spanked. My dad used just his hands, but they were strong mechanic type working man hands. He hit hard when he was angry. I remember witnessing a particularly rage filled spank on my little sister. She didn't deserve that. I won't spank. He would do the 3-2-don't-let-me-get-to-1 thing which was VERY effective because we knew what happened when he got to one. Also used to make us sit in the corner (facing the corner.) My mom would do 3-2-1 but it didn't mean anything because there was no consequence. My goal is to fall somewhere between those two discipline styles.
We have agreed that we will spank if we feel it's necessary. There would be warnings involved and it wouldn't be a regular thing. We'll make that decision when the time comes.
My mom says that she didn't 'need' to spank us because she thought we were well behaved. But I honestly think we were spoiled brats and to this day I don't think my brothers give her the respect that she deserves because she never disciplined us. That's not to say there aren't other ways of discipline. But I do know that I want us to be more strict than my parents and H's parents were. Even as an aunt & nanny I am (and H as an uncle too) definitely more regimented than our parents. I know that things will be different when we have our own children, and my mom always annoyingly says, "We'll see when you have your own kids," but that honestly makes me want to stick to my guns even more.
DH and I were both spanked as kiddos. To varying degrees. We have agreed that spanking will be an absolute last resort option with our kids (a never event for me, and a last resort for him).
In 28m, we've always found other ways to discipline, and I know that we will work to keep it that way.
We don't even do time outs. Items used inappropriately get to have a time out, but the kiddo does not. Part of that is because she's still quite young and would not connect the time out to a desired behavior (showing her what we want her to do/how to behave is more effective), and the other part is that she's incredibly sensitive and just using a strong tone with her breaks her heart.
Post by sordidvolition on Mar 25, 2015 10:32:23 GMT -5
I was spanked. DH was not. Oddly, he is a proponent for spanking and I am not. I recommend Love and Logic and ahaparenting.com as methods of "gentle discipline." We do not spank DS
I just want to add that it's very easy to have a plan in place before you actually know how your child's personality is going to develop. You could plan to not spank and end up having a complete problem child. Or you could tell yourself it's okay to spank and find that it doesn't affect your child's behavior in the least. Different methods of discipline work for different children because not all children have the same personality. I think it's important to at least be open to different ideas of discipline because you never know which one will be best for your child. Some kids do well with timeouts and some need a little more. With that in mind, I think it's important not to judge other parents for the method of discipline they choose to use for their own kids.
As much as I'm sure we'd all love to say that we would never need to spank our children and can use alternative punishment instead, yata yata, I don't think it is reasonable to completely rule it out from possibility. If your child is completely out of control and no other form of punishment works wouldn't you at least consider spanking if it would help your child develop into a responsible human being?
Post by wegrowsheep on Mar 25, 2015 10:48:56 GMT -5
I was spanked as a kid, and I earned em all, lol. And we do use spanking as a "tool" in our house, but every child is different. DD is very sensitive and emotional, and responds very quickly to a serious talk or time out, and always has. DS, however, is a different story... And even then, a spanking isn't always the right thing for him. But it's there, and they know it. I know plenty of moms that spank, and as many that don't, and the behavior of their children, good or bad, doesn't boil down to spanking.
DH and I were both spanked but I can't really remember it. I just remember my dad threatening and following through a few times, although nothing traumatic. DH was hit with a belt, remembers it well and thinks it was awful.
We don't spank. DS is a very difficult child and I feel like recently I've been completely out of control of him. Last weekend I gave him a "flicker" on his ear. I just flicked his ear pretty good with my fingers. He immediately listened to me and then I had the upper hand for the next few days by threatening to do it again. DH was out of town and when he returned I told him what I had done. He disagreed with it and said he didn't think it was right, so no more flickers. Back to time outs (which seem to do NOTHING, btw). But this whole parenting thing is a team effort and we've got to be on board with each other.
I agree and have spanked but only to a certain to degree. I believe there is a difference between punishment and discipline. I have never lost control and neither did my father. I was spanked maybe three times my whole life. For very serious offenses. He was always calm and in control. He told me to go to my room and wait. I got swatted three times with his hand. He let me cry then would come back and talk to me about why I was spanked and how he did not want to do it. I swatted my son on the bottom and hand a few times when he was younger but only for serious matters. I spanked him one time with my hand in a life or death situation and that is it. Otherwise I agree on other discipline methods of taking away privileges and certain chores for smaller things. I think it depends on behavior if the child and if it is effective for them. I have never spanked my DD but she is medically fragile and it is obviously different. But I did smack her little hand when she went through a hitting phase. That ended that right there. I also believe starting earlier (2 yo) helps set boundaries and you don't have to do it so much when their older as was the case with DS. I will never agree on beating your child or spanking out of rage. That should never be the case!! If you are that mad you need to go take a break and calm down. So I am somewhat in the middle on this one. I think there are times a child needs it and times other methods will work better. Like if your child is screaming and throwing a fit and ignoring you then a swat on the butt is well deserved and will most likely shock them out of their fit. The whole trying to placate a raging child is the worst you could do. Bribing them etc. or not following through with threats. That opens the door for it to get a whole lot worse.
I just want to add that it's very easy to have a plan in place before you actually know how your child's personality is going to develop. You could plan to not spank and end up having a complete problem child. Or you could tell yourself it's okay to spank and find that it doesn't affect your child's behavior in the least. Different methods of discipline work for different children because not all children have the same personality. I think it's important to at least be open to different ideas of discipline because you never know which one will be best for your child. Some kids do well with timeouts and some need a little more. With that in mind, I think it's important not to judge other parents for the method of discipline they choose to use for their own kids.
As much as I'm sure we'd all love to say that we would never need to spank our children and can use alternative punishment instead, yata yata, I don't think it is reasonable to completely rule it out from possibility. If your child is completely out of control and no other form of punishment works wouldn't you at least consider spanking if it would help your child develop into a responsible human being?
For me, it is truly a never option. If I am at the point where I feel that I may spank, then I will pass DD or DS along to DH for his attempt at discipline.
In our house, "hands are for gentle touch" and why/how do we as parents get a free pass on that to use our hands for hitting? That's just another reason to why we do not view spanking as an option for discipline.
Post by tahitiandreamin on Mar 25, 2015 11:02:57 GMT -5
I think that so much really depends on the individual child. With DD I would never, ever contemplate spanking her but that's entirely because of who she is. DD is highly sensitive and gets upset (to the point of tears) very, very easily. She is incredibly conscientious and for the most part is very good, with the odd typical pre-schooler my-mind-was-elsewhere moment. Spanking her would end up causing more problems than it would solve.
Post by mrskblack11 on Mar 25, 2015 11:10:56 GMT -5
DH and I have not had this discussion yet so I will bring it up tonight. I think there is value in a well timed spank (with a warning first). I do not plan on using spanking as an everyday punishment or consequence.
I don't remember being spanked. I do remember my sisters getting spanked. I probably was spanked once and never again would do anything bad enough to be spanked again. I was one of those kids that was terrified of getting in trouble or displeasing my parents. I was never grounded as a teenager. I was an angel child. My sisters are a different story.
Also, you're eventually going to need some other form of discipline other than spanking when the kiddo gets bigger, right? I mean, you're not walking around warning at 16 year old that you're going to spank him/her, so why not figure out other effective forms of discipline now/while they're young?
(I don't have the right answer there, just another point that DH and I toss around when talking about how our other family members have chosen to discipline.)
On a similar note, what are people's thoughts on publicly humiliating kids as a form of punishment?
That's one that I cannot stand and I think is so wrong. That's breaking so much trust for a child and honestly, if you can't discipline your child and feel the need to turn to public humiliation, you should really seek a counselor or something to step in for the kid. My SIL has a step daughter and this poor girl is 14 and most definitely has some mental health issues. She spent the first 7-8 years of her life with her drug addict mom and her mom was a disgusting whore and would have sex with guys in her bed while her daughter was in it (between the ages of 4-8). Needless to say, she has some problems with sexuality and that kind of thing. So, my BIL and SIL decide to let her have a laptop and unsurprisingly, she started chatting with random men and sending them pictures. Instead of getting her professional help, they took a picture of her cleaning a toilet, with tears streaming down her face, posted it to Facebook and their combined 1500+ friends and included a long caption about what she did that led to the punishment. And these people consider themselves to be devoutly Christian. It was incredibly angering.
I think spanking falls into the "shaming" category for me, as well. These are just not tools I want in my pocket for discipline. YMMV.
On a similar note, what are people's thoughts on publicly humiliating kids as a form of punishment?
That's one that I cannot stand and I think is so wrong. That's breaking so much trust for a child and honestly, if you can't discipline your child and feel the need to turn to public humiliation, you should really seek a counselor or something to step in for the kid. My SIL has a step daughter and this poor girl is 14 and most definitely has some mental health issues. She spent the first 7-8 years of her life with her drug addict mom and her mom was a disgusting whore and would have sex with guys in her bed while her daughter was in it (between the ages of 4-8). Needless to say, she has some problems with sexuality and that kind of thing. So, my BIL and SIL decide to let her have a laptop and unsurprisingly, she started chatting with random men and sending them pictures. Instead of getting her professional help, they took a picture of her cleaning a toilet, with tears streaming down her face, posted it to Facebook and their combined 1500+ friends and included a long caption about what she did that led to the punishment. And these people consider themselves to be devoutly Christian. It was incredibly angering.
This is one of the most messed up things I have read in a long time. I don't think people should be able to get away with doing this to a child. Disgusting.
Post by paintdadanta on Mar 25, 2015 11:39:03 GMT -5
DH and I were spanked as children and don't see any issues with it. We will do the same for our child which is already the discipline in place for my stepson. However, it is not our go to option as we believe in ask, tell, and then enforce. Similarly, we do not believe that all actions deserve spanking just depends on the offense. Example based on SS, attitude or not listening results in grounding or other privileges lost while hitting another kid at school or poking the dog with a burning stick equals spanking.
However, I also understand that some people are firmly against spanking and I think that every parent should allowed to discipline their child the way in which they see fit (within reason of course). Not to mention that every child reacts differently and one's disciplinary plan may need to be adapted to fit the child or situation.
Also, you're eventually going to need some other form of discipline other than spanking when the kiddo gets bigger, right? I mean, you're not walking around warning at 16 year old that you're going to spank him/her, so why not figure out other effective forms of discipline now/while they're young?
(I don't have the right answer there, just another point that DH and I toss around when talking about how our other family members have chosen to discipline.)
Of course threatening to spank a 16 year old will be ineffective, just as grounding a 2 or 3 year old would be ineffective. Taking away privileges works for some toddlers, but not all. You are going to have to change your disciplining strategy as your child grows. Finding something that works now doesn't necessarily mean it will work forever.
But isn't grounding just, in effect, another version of a time out? Same idea, yes?
On a similar note, what are people's thoughts on publicly humiliating kids as a form of punishment?
That's one that I cannot stand and I think is so wrong. That's breaking so much trust for a child and honestly, if you can't discipline your child and feel the need to turn to public humiliation, you should really seek a counselor or something to step in for the kid. My SIL has a step daughter and this poor girl is 14 and most definitely has some mental health issues. She spent the first 7-8 years of her life with her drug addict mom and her mom was a disgusting whore and would have sex with guys in her bed while her daughter was in it (between the ages of 4-8). Needless to say, she has some problems with sexuality and that kind of thing. So, my BIL and SIL decide to let her have a laptop and unsurprisingly, she started chatting with random men and sending them pictures. Instead of getting her professional help, they took a picture of her cleaning a toilet, with tears streaming down her face, posted it to Facebook and their combined 1500+ friends and included a long caption about what she did that led to the punishment. And these people consider themselves to be devoutly Christian. It was incredibly angering.
Oh my that is horrible!! I do not agree with public humiliation unless and this is a very big unless my child were bullying another kid. Like serious bullying physical and emotional trauma for that child! I can not stand bullies and I am not sure what I would do if my kid were the bully.
Post by theBeeMama on Mar 25, 2015 11:44:20 GMT -5
Both dh and I were spanked as kids... His dad used lots of extreme punishments and even left marks when dh was a tiny toddler. (I'd call it abusive, but dh doesn't see it that way, although he has said he would never want to repeat that behavior with our kids, thank goodness!)
Honestly, I was never anti-spanking and assumed that we'd use it as a last resort if needed with our kids, just never out of anger, never with a belt or switch, etc... But then our son came along and spanking was just never an option! I just couldn't ever imagine myself laying a hand on him, and thankfully he is a really obedient kid and doesn't usually need any sort of discipline other than a verbal warning or time out. He's super smart and was verbal very early. So, in not spanking him, my opinion on the whole matter has kind of shifted. I still don't freak out and call people out who spank, as long as it doesn't cross any abusive or extreme boundaries. And I know every kid is different... But I just have started to look at it from a similar perspective to some of the previous posters, basically just realizing that it isn't something that works or is applicable in real life situations further down the road... And it's the classic "do as I say, not as I do" when you're trying to teach your kid not to hit.
On a similar note, what are people's thoughts on publicly humiliating kids as a form of punishment?
That's one that I cannot stand and I think is so wrong. That's breaking so much trust for a child and honestly, if you can't discipline your child and feel the need to turn to public humiliation, you should really seek a counselor or something to step in for the kid. My SIL has a step daughter and this poor girl is 14 and most definitely has some mental health issues. She spent the first 7-8 years of her life with her drug addict mom and her mom was a disgusting whore and would have sex with guys in her bed while her daughter was in it (between the ages of 4-8). Needless to say, she has some problems with sexuality and that kind of thing. So, my BIL and SIL decide to let her have a laptop and unsurprisingly, she started chatting with random men and sending them pictures. Instead of getting her professional help, they took a picture of her cleaning a toilet, with tears streaming down her face, posted it to Facebook and their combined 1500+ friends and included a long caption about what she did that led to the punishment. And these people consider themselves to be devoutly Christian. It was incredibly angering.
Oh my that is horrible!! I do not agree with public humiliation unless and this is a very big unless my child were bullying another kid. Like serious bullying physical and emotional trauma for that child! I can not stand bullies and I am not sure what I would do if my kid were the bully.
Srsly. I would be so incredibly disappointed in my parenting if it resulted in my kiddo being a bully. We'd have a lot of time to talk about it all in many rounds of therapy to start.
This is one of the most messed up things I have read in a long time. I don't think people should be able to get away with doing this to a child. Disgusting.
It is so messed up. I was beyond angry when I saw it. And guess what? It was the most ineffective punishment ever because they got her an iPhone a few months ago and she did the same thing, only this time she apparently asked the guy to come and kill her dad.
I'm literally ashamed to be related, even by marriage, to my SIL and BIL.
Wow, poor girl. I agree that shaming is a terribly ineffective punishment, and it's also just plain cruel. I really hope that she gets the help she needs to cope with her past (and maybe present) experiences. So sad.
Oh my that is horrible!! I do not agree with public humiliation unless and this is a very big unless my child were bullying another kid. Like serious bullying physical and emotional trauma for that child! I can not stand bullies and I am not sure what I would do if my kid were the bully.
Srsly. I would be so incredibly disappointed in my parenting if it resulted in my kiddo being a bully. We'd have a lot of time to talk about it all in many rounds of therapy to start.
Oh ya! Serious disappointment and therapy would be called for. Fortunately I don't see the two I have now ever doing that. My daughter is obviously special needs and my son is the most caring sensitive little boy I have ever seen. He's the best big brother and does anything and everything to make her happy. Definitely not a mean bone in either of them. So I am gonna hope I did something right with them and I will never have to cross that horrible bridge!!
I just want to add that it's very easy to have a plan in place before you actually know how your child's personality is going to develop. You could plan to not spank and end up having a complete problem child. Or you could tell yourself it's okay to spank and find that it doesn't affect your child's behavior in the least. Different methods of discipline work for different children because not all children have the same personality. I think it's important to at least be open to different ideas of discipline because you never know which one will be best for your child. Some kids do well with timeouts and some need a little more. With that in mind, I think it's important not to judge other parents for the method of discipline they choose to use for their own kids.
As much as I'm sure we'd all love to say that we would never need to spank our children and can use alternative punishment instead, yata yata, I don't think it is reasonable to completely rule it out from possibility. If your child is completely out of control and no other form of punishment works wouldn't you at least consider spanking if it would help your child develop into a responsible human being?
I cannot think of a single instance in which it is okay to raise your hand against another person. Why on earth would there be an exception when you are dealing with someone smaller and more vulnerable? If you are unable to resolve a situation without resorting to battery (and I'm using the legal term here meaning "an unwanted physical touch" - but think about that, you are legally battering your child when you spank them) then it's you that needs to re-evaluate your reactions.
There is no argument for spanking. I was spanked as a child and "turned out okay" but compared to what? How can we know how I would have developed if I hadn't been spanked? No study can replicate that because development can't be replicated with the same person in two different ways. In addition to the articles posted by noeliav, there have been studies which have shown that spanking is more prevalent in homes where the parents have less education and are from lower socio-economic backgrounds. Meaning that the more educated the parent, the less likely they are to spank their children. Regardless of your own background, do you want to be lumped in with a group of people who are marked by being uneducated?
We strive (or at least should) to teach our children to be productive members of the community. To work out their issues with words and to work together with others in a fashion that benefits all. Hitting, spanking, or any other physical means of accomplishing our goals sends the message to our children that there are situations where that's okay. I don't believe that's true, however, even if it were, at the age where spanking occurs, children aren't able mentally to discern that there are subtle distinctions on when behavior is appropriate and when it isn't. During this malleable time you are actually planting the seed that hitting is okay. That will stay them for years.
Signed,
The mother who has managed to discipline her "unruly child" for 3.5 years without ever hitting, swatting, or striking her child.
But isn't grounding just, in effect, another version of a time out? Same idea, yes?
I suppose you could put it that way, however time-outs, like every other form of punishment won't always work for your child. When my son was 2 and misbehaved, he would get a time-out and gladly go. He actually enjoyed it, so it wasn't a punishment for him. Whereas, if you ground a 16 year old from going out with their friends, you better believe they are not going to take kindly to that idea and will adjust their behavior in the future accordingly (hopefully anyways).
I guess my question/point was more to the effect that grounding and/or time out is an example of a discipline technique that could be used across all ages, and less to the point that it's an effective technique for all kids, ykwim?
DH and I have had the discussion at length and are still undecided. We're pretty much going to cater our discipline style to the child, though we agree that we would love to avoid spanking if other methods work for us. Both of us were spanked as children to varying degrees. It worked for me and DH, but he also told me how his sister never responded well to spankings. I also have a pair of friends who's sassy little girl will turn her tush toward them after the warning of a spanking and tell them to do it, so in their case it doesn't work either.
As much as I'm sure we'd all love to say that we would never need to spank our children and can use alternative punishment instead, yata yata, I don't think it is reasonable to completely rule it out from possibility. If your child is completely out of control and no other form of punishment works wouldn't you at least consider spanking if it would help your child develop into a responsible human being?
I cannot think of a single instance in which it is okay to raise your hand against another person. Why on earth would there be an exception when you are dealing with someone smaller and more vulnerable? If you are unable to resolve a situation without resorting to battery (and I'm using the legal term here meaning "an unwanted physical touch" - but think about that, you are legally battering your child when you spank them) then it's you that needs to re-evaluate your reactions.
There is no argument for spanking. I was spanked as a child and "turned out okay" but compared to what? How can we know how I would have developed if I hadn't been spanked? No study can replicate that because development can't be replicated with the same person in two different ways. In addition to the articles posted by noeliav, there have been studies which have shown that spanking is more prevalent in homes where the parents have less education and are from lower socio-economic backgrounds. Meaning that the more educated the parent, the less likely they are to spank their children. Regardless of your own background, do you want to be lumped in with a group of people who are marked by being uneducated?
We strive (or at least should) to teach our children to be productive members of the community. To work out their issues with words and to work together with others in a fashion that benefits all. Hitting, spanking, or any other physical means of accomplishing our goals sends the message to our children that there are situations where that's okay. I don't believe that's true, however, even if it were, at the age where spanking occurs, children aren't able mentally to discern that there are subtle distinctions on when behavior is appropriate and when it isn't. During this malleable time you are actually planting the seed that hitting is okay. That will stay them for years.
Signed,
The mother who has managed to discipline her "unruly child" for 3.5 years without ever hitting, swatting, or striking her child.
Post by bendherova on Mar 25, 2015 13:33:09 GMT -5
Toys and privileges are taken away, most of the time. Time outs too.
The thing he dislikes the most is being alone at bedtime, so that's our "last resort" punishment. We'll give him a bath, tuck him in including hugs and kisses, remind him why he's solo and leave. Usually one of us reads to him and then stays with him in the dark for 10min.
Honestly a lot of our discipline issues are bc *i'm* not paying attention to his cues-- hunger, tiredness and/or expecting too much from him in a given circumstance.
Toys and privileges are taken away, most of the time. Time outs too.
The thing he dislikes the most is being alone at bedtime, so that's our "last resort" punishment. We'll give him a bath, tuck him in including hugs and kisses, remind him why he's solo and leave. Usually one of us reads to him and then stays with him in the dark for 10min.
Honestly a lot of our discipline issues are bc *i'm* not paying attention to his cues-- hunger, tiredness and/or expecting too much from him in a given circumstance.
I agree that on the rare occasions DD is having "trouble listening" (as we call it, lol) it's because of that. Generally, her misbehavior is something I've botched on, whoopsies.
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