I originally put this as UO because it's a tabloid story and I should know better than to believe these as reliable sources. It was suggested to give it it's own thread so here we go!
I caught that Josh Duggar story on TMZ a few hours ago. I read the police report on inTouch and it has me all riled up. Any of our lawyer mamas want to step in and shut me down? Does this police report look legit?
I think I'm in denial, because I'm with @kej0004 on loving the Duggars, but I just feel like there should be more here. It seems like another source would also be reporting this if it were true. My original thought was that we would have also heard about it sooner from one of the victims, but I know victims are often hesitant to report incidents, unfortunately. Edit for tag fail
dogmama22 I saw it on TMZ first then found the article with the police repot as posted above. TMZ posted another article that a victim has requested the evidence to be destroyed.
If its true I hope the girls help. Real help. Not just seeking God help, therapy and counseling. I'm crushed for them. And if Anna didn't know I hope she also seeks counseling.
If you read the police report, it sounds like Josh didn't get any real therapy (they sent him to build a house), so I seriously doubt the girls did. Someone on another message board I'm on posted an example of how girls in this sect would get "counseling" on this and it's disgusting. I can't really link right now since I'm mobile but I'll see if I can google.
I never liked the Duggars so this just confirms their creepiness to me. I hope they lose their show.
Post by theBeeMama on May 21, 2015 17:12:16 GMT -5
I saw a different article about this today and kinda chose not to believe it because the article I saw was soooooo vague. This one seems to add more validity (the first thing I read was basically like "something may have happened at some point to someone and Josh Duggar may have been the someone that did the something to the someone"... It was a waste of five minutes.) but anyway... I sure hope it isn't true for everyone involved, but I've mentioned before that I grew up surrounded by lots of similar families (thankfully my parents were never that strict or weird, but we did homeschool and there were six of us so we kind of got clumped in with the crazy fundamentalists or whatever you wanna call them) and one of the biggest, "holiest", most admired families in our area still go to my parent's church (my dad is the pastor) and just in the last couple years the husband has tried to commit suicide, one of their daughters got a nose ring and a half sleeve tattoo (lol, the horror. Just kidding, but ya know, for them it's a big deal. Imagine a Duggar with a rose ring and a bunch of tattoos) and then got arrested for shoplifting. Their oldest daughter is creepily obsessed with sex (she's married and it's not like she's into anything bad or weird or wrong, and part of me is proud of her for having the boldness to explore sexuality but it's just like a kid who learned a dirty word on the playground. Like now that she's finally "allowed" to think/talk about her body and sexual desires she just takes it to a weird, creepy place.) And most recently my mom has had to call the police on the mother of the family because t has become blaringly obvious that she severely neglects her younger kids and she picks their young teenagers up from church youth group totally intoxicated... In a huge van. And she drives it home. (Which is when my mom finally couldn't take it anymore and called the cops.)
And yet when you try to confront them about any of this they all glaze over and act like they have no idea what you're talking about and go on pretending like they're the image of perfection.
ALL that to say, nobody in the world is *that* perfect. And the harder you try to cover everything up, the deeper the rabbit hole usually goes. Because not ever allowing your kids to process their mistakes because you can't handle the idea of them doing something wrong just sends messages of shame and rejection to them.
I'll be honest and say that I was being oblivious and my first thought was "Where was he when this happened?" But it seems a bit obvious that it's likely his sisters, sadly.... I mean they're redacted, but it says "vicitims [redacted] who live with Jim Bob and Michelle."
It's extremely unfortunate, and I feel bad for them (whether his sisters or someone else), and for him. I'm not going to say I blame their beliefs for his actions, but I do think the way they suppress feelings or talk about the shame in those "impure thoughts" is just wrong and obviously had to have some play in this. You can't just deny and ignore everything, and there's only so much a modest lifestyle will "protect" someone.
Brings it back to the discussion they had in the most recent interview special about the way they dress and everything. A girl wearing pants is not going to lead to impure thoughts, nor will a typical tank top. Let's just be real here people. Boys (and girls) are going to have imaginations and impure thoughts regardless... sadly he acted on some very real teenage urges.
I meant sect of Christianity. I didn't know what their designated religion was.
I think that's really extreme and would be rejected by the vast majority of Christians. I know the Duggars' views seem extreme to most people, but I have seen nothing but loving behavior from them and I don't see them agreeing with counseling that blames the victim in any way.
The whole thing is sad- police should have followed up, he should have been sent to counseling (I'm hoping they were ALL sent to counseling) and I'm side eyeing his wife for marrying him ... he told you and you still had children?
The whole thing is sad- police should have followed up, he should have been sent to counseling (I'm hoping they were ALL sent to counseling) and I'm side eyeing his wife for marrying him ... he told you and you still had children?
Wow, really sad for all involved and as PPs have said, I hope everyone involved truly received the appropriate counseling.
So my husband and I were just discussing this and, assuming it was only his sisters that were the victims, we were talking about what we would do in this situation... Would you report something like this to the police or just keep it within the family and get everyone the proper counseling?
ETA: The family confirmed it happened on their Facebook with statements from parents, Josh, and Anna.
If one of my kids did something to hurt another one of my kids, you better believe I would report it to the police and find help for all of them involved. It's my job to protect all of my kids and I think this would be the best way. If you just slide it under the rug, someone might not get the help they need.
On a side note - I really don't understand everyone's fascination with this family. Why are they so famous and why do people care so much about their lives??
I enjoy watching them mostly for Michelle's insane amount of patience. I think it's cool to see how they manage a family of 19 children relatively well. Also, it's something I've never experienced and never will so it's just interesting to see a different way of life. Confession: I also enjoy Sister Wives and other similar shows. I really enjoy learning about other religions and cultures (not just through reality TV).
So my husband and I were just discussing this and, assuming it was only his sisters that were the victims, we were talking about what we would do in this situation... Would you report something like this to the police or just keep it within the family and get everyone the proper counseling?
ETA: The family confirmed it happened on their Facebook with statements from parents, Josh, and Anna.
We just had the same conversation! I am so sickened by their half assed attempt at "rehab" and the assumption I am working off, which is that the girls didn't get treatment.
If it were my hypothetical family that doesn't exist yet I think after the first incident was discovered you go get professional help. You talk to the pediatrician, family counselor, I don't even know who else. If it happens again you do something more drastic to protect the victim(s) because obviously counseling didn't work.
The most fucked up part is it happened again. And again. And again. And again. And they didn't do anything! Those parents had a duty to protect their VERY young innocent daughters. Not just their older son who was clearly going through something serious and disturbing. You don't pop out a bunch more kids like it's no big deal. You don't hide it and only seek help from the church and 1 cop you're friends with (who btw is in jail for child porn charges.) The answer is NOT brainwashing modesty into the mind of little girls because they are responsible for doing the most they can to help poor men from having impure thoughts about them just for existing. I don't label myself a feminist but damn if this isn't one of the most misogynistic families I have ever seen. They were children. They were sleeping.
Cases like this always make me wonder if an adult did something to him first. One of my extended family members touched his sister inappropriately at around the same age and later we discovered at the same time in his life he was being molested by a catholic priest who was a role model in his life.
Molestation many times is just a chain reaction. This is why actual professional counseling can be so important and a quick reaction to the problem. this story sounds really sad for all involved.
Post by sidneyvicious on May 21, 2015 22:10:54 GMT -5
Sexual abuse of any child, no matter who it is, must be reported. Your average every day mom and dad is just not equipped with the kinds of tools necessary to give the kind of help both the victims and the abuser need. It's not just about punishment for the abuser. It's also about finding out why they do what they do, because especially when the abuser is a child himself, he may not understand why he did it either. It's also about the safety and well-being of the victims and all the other children who could be potential victims. It's also about ensuring the victims get the help they need to not only understand and move past this, but to ensure that they don't go on to perpetuate abuse to others in the future. Hiding this was cruel and merciless and selfish for all involved. Shame on you, Jim Bob and Michelle.
If one of my kids did something to hurt another one of my kids, you better believe I would report it to the police and find help for all of them involved. It's my job to protect all of my kids and I think this would be the best way. If you just slide it under the rug, someone might not get the help they need.
On a side note - I really don't understand everyone's fascination with this family. Why are they so famous and why do people care so much about their lives??
I just think you could address it thoroughly without necessarily getting the police involved. I do see that having the police involved would deter future behavior and give a taste for the bigger consequences that could happen if it continued into adulthood... But obviously in this case telling the police didn't really help in any way, so why have it on the books in the first place?
Involving the authorities is the only answer and the only way to ensure that the matter really is addressed thoroughly, as you put it. People fail to understand that, especially in the case of juvenile offenders, the number one goal isn't necessarily punishment, but rather deterrence and rehabilitation. These children deserved better.
If it were my hypothetical family that doesn't exist yet I think after the first incident was discovered you go get professional help. You talk to the pediatrician, family counselor, I don't even know who else. If it happens again you do something more drastic to protect the victim(s) because obviously counseling didn't work.
The most fucked up part is it happened again. And again. And again. And again. And they didn't do anything! Those parents had a duty to protect their VERY young innocent daughters. Not just their older son who was clearly going through something serious and disturbing. You don't pop out a bunch more kids like it's no big deal. You don't hide it and only seek help from the church and 1 cop you're friends with (who btw is in jail for child porn charges.) The answer is NOT brainwashing modesty into the mind of little girls because they are responsible for doing the most they can to help poor men from having impure thoughts about them just for existing. I don't label myself a feminist but damn if this isn't one of the most misogynistic families I have ever seen. They were children. They were sleeping.
I agree with all of this. So many angry thoughts at the parents for not protecting ALL of their kids.
Post by sidneyvicious on May 21, 2015 22:48:26 GMT -5
Getting someone, especially a child, the help they so desperately need is not ruining their life. I think you have a gross misunderstanding of the justice system and how it really works. Also, parents are ill-equipped to objectively implement everything involved in the treatment of a sex offender and/or their victims.
I have no words for the despicable actions of the law enforcement officer involved. He is a huge part of the reason why people are afraid to trust the system. However, in my experience, this is not the norm.
Failure to report sex abuse of a child is reprehensible in and of itself. You should probably rethink that. And saying you'd wait until there was a repeat offense before seeking the proper help -- are you fucking kidding me?! Mom of the year here. Seriously what the fuck?
Involving the authorities is the only answer and the only way to ensure that the matter really is addressed thoroughly, as you put it. People fail to understand that, especially in the case of juvenile offenders, the number one goal isn't necessarily punishment, but rather deterrence and rehabilitation. These children deserved better.
Except that there is a police report on this case from 10 years ago and clearly it was NOT addressed properly in any way...
I don't think the police or the court system is really the way to ensure your kids get proper treatment anyways. (In this case with their belief system, maybe.) But I'd bet in most families, you wouldn't have to have a court tell you that everyone needs counseling after that. You'd seek it yourself, hopefully get everyone the treatment they need, and then not have ruined your kid's life for something they did when they were 14 years old. So I think in my hypothetical family, I wouldn't call the cops. Or maybe I would, but as a last resort if there was a repeat offense after receiving treatment.
Also, QFP, not only because I forgot to in my last post, but seriously, who in their right mind is going to sit back and let a child be victimized a second time before taking action?
I believe physicians are mandated reporters of any type of suspected abuse, but I think only if they saw the victim if such? I'm not sure if Josh had been taken to a doc they are expected to report it? (can someone clarify??)
The whole issue of highly "religious" people sweeping things like this under the rug makes me want to say an awful lot. DH and I both came from similarly religious families. Grrrrrrrr.
Post by carolyngrace on May 22, 2015 7:04:53 GMT -5
bendherova, as the current reporting laws stand, mandated reporters have to report any "reasonable doubt or belief" that a child is being abused, whether they find out about it from the child, the abuser, or someone down the street. Also, the timeline doesn't matter, I've reported things that happened 10 years ago because someone didn't report it at the time.
I agree it's reprehensible that the parents AND the authorities didn't do much at the time, but I'm not at ALL surprised by the parents' actions. Sexual abuse happens in at LEAST 1/4 households and just a fraction of it gets reported.
The scariest thing for me with this story is that this is likely the tip of the iceberg.
Both Jill and Jessa posted pictures on Instagram yesterday. The comments those girls got were awful. There was of course the whole range of the spectrum but the ones that really get me are the many holy rollers thankful that God forgives all sin. This is what people say to his VICTIM?
Yeah, I don't buy that they're a loving family. If you read the report, they did nothing to help their daughters OR josh - they sent him to build a house and to talk to another man (I think he was an officer?) - who was later arrested for child pornography charges. They never reported it to anyone - it was Oprah's people that caused the investigation when they were tipped off about it.
And as for them not believing in a victim-shaming philosophy, I've seen them on the Today show (or you know, one of those shows) talking about how immodest dress causes lustful thoughts and advances from men. Their women are raised to get married and have babies. They're incredibly misogynistic.
If you look at the comments on their FB confirmation yesterday it's A LOT of high and mighty shit. Which normally doesn't bug, TETO, whatever. But if it was some random news story these people would be up in arms and the duggars themselves would probably be preaching about how horrible the individual is and justice be served, blah blah blah.
I agree with this entirely. Additionally, the picking and choosing of rights and wrongs and what can and cannot be forgiven drives me mad. I have no issues with the Duggars being mass procreators or being unwaivering in their faith. I don't live their life and as long as everyone is happy and healthy, who am I to judge. HOWEVER... This man is now raising 4 children with his wife after abusing family members, but MY WIFE AND I shouldn't be allowed to have children because WE'RE poor examples of morality!? Ooh... I could rage.
@hazeldublin & @pcrunk - I didn't mean to derail the topic either... just something that obviously touches close to home. I appreciate BOTH your points of view though I'm a Christian woman (as is my wife) and we got married in a Christian church. I understand faith and a relationship with God. What I take issue with is a family that has been through something THAT difficult and harmful turning around and casting judgement on others. That is not Christian behaviour at all.
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