The Girl on the Train - #Discussion

[wanderingheart]

Posting this now since I will be in a car most of the day. Happy 3 day weekend!

I'll also add a trigger warning for question number 4. 

1. We all do it—actively watch life around us. In this way, with her own voyeuristic curiosity, Rachel Watson is not so unusual. What do you think accounts for this nosey, all-too-human impulse? Is it more extreme in Rachel than in the average person? What is so different about her?

2. In both Rachel’s and Megan’s marriages, deep secrets are kept from the husbands. Are these marriages unusual or even extreme in this way? Consider how many relationships rely on half-truths? Is it ever necessary or justifiable to lie to someone you love? How much is too much to hide from a partner?

3. What about the lies the characters tell to themselves? In what ways is Rachel lying to herself? Do all people tell themselves lies to some degree in order to move on with their lives? Is what Rachel (or any of the other characters) is doing any different from that? How do her lies ultimately affect her and the people around her?

SPOILER: Click to show

SPOILER: Click to show

{Question #4 - trigger warning}
4. One of Rachel’s deepest disappointments, it turns out, is that she can’t have children. Her ex-husband Tom’s second wife Anna is the mother to a young child, Evie. How does Rachel’s inability to conceive precipitate her breakdown? How does the topic of motherhood drive the plot of the story? What do you think Paula Hawkins was trying to say about the ways motherhood can define women’s lives or what we expect from women’s domestic lives, whether as wives, mothers, or unmarried women in general?

 

5. Think about trust in The Girl on the Train. Is Rachel a very trustworthy person? Why or why not? Who appears trustworthy and is actually not? What are the skills we use to make the decision about whether to trust someone we don’t know well?

6. Other characters in the novel make different assumptions about Rachel depending on how or even where they see her. To a certain extent, she understands this and often tries to manipulate their assumptions—by appearing to be a commuter, for instance, going to work every day. How did your assumptions about her affect your reading of the central mystery in the book? Did your assumptions about her change over its course? What other characters did you make assumptions about? How did your assumptions affect your interpretation of the plot? Having now finished The Girl on the Train, what surprised you the most?

[longhornwino0907]

I FINISHED THE BOOK IN TIME!

I actually forgot this is what we were reading, and I downloaded it late last week. Tore through it, obvs.

Answers to come, I've just been waiting all morning for this!

[rablissful]

I'm not done with it Stupid play took up like all my free time. I'll finish it today or tomorrow and come answer questions.

[longhornwino0907]

Overall, I had a lot of feels about this book. The IF subplot was hard on me, but the mystery kept me going. Rachel was not sympathetic at all, but I was intrigued by her and really needed to know how she was involved. It felt like I was reading an expanded version of some true crime ID network show, and I really enjoyed it.

1. I feel like it's completely normal for humans to people watch. But Rachel did take it to a whole new level by creating a fantasy life for Megan and Scott (in Jess and Jason). I wonder if she did this because of her own lack of a life, basically. Her life was at a standstill, and she needed something to be involved in. I think she was also intrigued by them in particular because of their close proximity to Tom and Anna. Which made it a little weird. It was almost as though she was projecting the happiness she missed from her relationship with Tom onto this Jess/Jason relationship. It was as though it gave her a way to relive that time in her life.

2. I think these marriages are extreme, yes. But it's not abnormal to have half-truths in a relationship. I don't think it's ever okay to lie to someone you love, but sometimes, it is better to lie by omission to spare feelings. I would rely on this, by default, but I know there are circumstances where this is what's best. My H, currently, is very stressed with work, so I haven't yet told him that I tested and got a BFN. He doesn't need that on top of everything else.

3. Rachel's alcoholism and her "just one more and then I'll get back on the wagon" was a total lie to herself. And to tell herself she needed it to get through was also a sort of lie. She chose to believe that she needed this, but she never really gave herself a chance, that we saw, to handle things without the alcohol. I know that addiction isn't a choice, but that's different than what I'm getting at. For her, it was less of an addiction thing and more of not having an confidence in her abilities to cope.

4. Motherhood, fertility, is a defining part of the lives of many women. For many of us, having fertility issues causes sadness, anger, depression, and so many other feels. I think it's also a bit of commentary on the pressure we place on women to be mothers. Megan's guilt over her child dying, Rachel's guilt and sadness over not being able to conceive -- these things send these women into downward spirals. Anna has this smugness about her, and it seems much of it revolves around roping in Tom with the baby. Societies expectations of women causes certain feelings of inferiority and superiority, and that's damaging to women and to society.

5. I don't think there is really anyone who is trustworthy in the entire story. Maybe Abdic, ultimately, but of course, we're led to believe he's not. I think people often rely on gut feelings or looks to decide if we should trust someone, and there are times, like with Scott or with Tom, when that fails us miserably. It's a miracle anyone trusts anyone in this world, when you think about it.

6. Early on, I assumed Rachel's missing memories meant that she had everything to do with Megan's death. She's not trustworthy, she's always drinking, she's not very sympathetic. So of course she's malicious, right? I made assumptions about Anna up until the very end, that she was a "stand by your man" type of woman, and I was pleasantly surprised that she was not, and that she and Rachel ended up being bonded, albeit in a weird, twisted way.

[wanderingheart]

I had lots of feels about this too. Mainly because it's been a shitty few weeks, so I was already emotional.

1. We're all nosey and curious people. I fully admit to creeping on people on FB and social media enables us to peer into people's lives on the regular. That said, Rachel is an extreme case of how that can quickly become an obsession.

2. This is hard. I'm normally in the camp of "tell your partner everything", but I agree that there are things I don't tell him. Up until a couple months ago, he didn't want to know about my temping and cycles, for instance. I don't really see that as a lie of omission because he didn't want to know.

3. Probably the biggest plot turn for me was when Rachel realized she was the one being abused, and not the abuser. Whether she repressed it or not, that was the biggest lie she told herself. She defined herself through her drunk and anger outbursts, and let it dictate her entire life.

4. Ok. Im not sure I'm in the right head space to answer this, but this really hit home. Part of my struggles with IF stem from the fact that I feel helpless and that our society makes women feel like they are less of a person without children. I think I've touched on this briefly before, but I feel isolated in the church, my job, social media, and just society in general. So I get Rachel. If MH left me to have a child with another woman, I would be crushed. Devestated. Does that excuse her behavior? No. But I get her.

5. I started out trusting people, but throughout the book I realized nobody was trustworthy. They all had secrets that they were keeping hidden.

6. At first, I hated Rachel. I was like girl, why you meddling?! STAY OUT OF IT. But then I got to understand her more and sympathized with her. I still think she should have stayed out of it and I still wanted to pull my hair out when she did something stupid though. Oh, and I hated Anna. Like, hated. She was so smug, didn't even regret hurting Rachel through the affair, and didn't get how difficult Rachel's IF battle was. She was so full or herself, and found her identity in her motherhood as much as Rachel found hers in her IF.

[longhornwino0907]

wanderingheart, so much yes about the Rachel realizing she was being abused. "Oh fuck, no way!" actually came out of my mouth. I really thought she could trust what Tom was telling her about her outbursts, and then when she realized how wrong she was about that... oh man. I wanted to jump in those pages and strangle him myself.

Also, I have to mention that all the comment about Rachel letting herself go, getting fat, the other women rolling their eyes and thinking no way would any man go for her over them or anyone else was really hard for me. I've been overweight my whole life. Yeah, I've lost a lot of weight recently and feel a little better about myself, but in addition to women being defined by their motherhood, they are also defined by their waist size. And for the women in this story to be actively participating in fat-shaming Rachel really hit a sore spot with me. We should NOT be doing this to each other, and I know it happens all time. Hell, I'm guilty of silently judging other women, but I make a concerted effort to stop that train of thought immediately. We have GOT to have each others backs here. Society is so demanding of women; we can't do that to each other, too.

[awkwardturtle]

Hey, I read this book!

This book was a roller coaster of emotions for me.

First, ok Rachel is sort of normal. I get making up things and stories for people to pass the time, and I understand if you are on the same monotonous journey going the same route every morning that you see the same people. It did seem obsessive watching the same two people every morning, so I kind of started thinking, what a creeper.

I think the author does a good job of character development with Rachel. She obviously had problems, rightfully so with everything that went on with her. In the end, I think Megan was the crazy one of the two. The most ridiculously controlling and the character I hated was tom.

[samanthasays]

1. I am actually not really that interested in watching people. My husband can people watch for hours. But it bores me. I think that without a job or any direction in life Rachel lives vicariously though other people.

2. Since the deep secrets in those marriages was affairs, yes, that is wrong, and extreme. Most people are not out having affairs and hiding it from their spouse. I think the line is if your partner would be upset if they found out than your secret is crossing a line. I dont tell H everything, but he doesn't need to know that I went to the book store or bought a new shirt. Anything that would hurt him he at least deserves my honesty.

3. I think Anna is the one who lies to herself the most. She tries to talk herself into believing her life is perfect. Rachel seems like the alcoholism is keeping her from SEEING the truth, not just admitting it to herself as is the case with Anna.

4. I liked that Anna was balanced by Megan with the IF plot. Anna was kind of disguising. I want a child with every cell of my body, but I would never want to become a woman whose sole identity and purpose in life was motherhood. Megan on the other hand was showing the messy, sometimes tragic side of motherhood. I really felt for Rachel. So much of her narrative I have said in my own head before. The book actually helped me with my IF emotions, at least I have a faithful husband who loves me. That is more than poor rachel had. And Anna can have her baby, she is married to a dead beat murderer with no money. Have fun being a single mom working two jobs to pay the bills. I am so glad she ended up with the short end of the stick. I hated her. Rachel gets to move on and have a life. Anna is fucked. And she deserves it.

5. I think Rachel is a trustworthy person, I think her alcoholism interferes with that. She tries so hard to remember and put the pieces together. She is not intentionally deceptive. I know a lot of people hated her, but I pitied her more than anything.

6. I made assumptions about her once the IF plot was introduced. I can understand how you carry the pain, grief, and anger around like a weight. I have left my cart at target because I could not take all of the babies and pregnant bellies. But just like Anna, their lives might be a complete disaster. Their ability to have children does not make them happier, more loved, or more loving. The book helped me come to terms with that.

[longhornwino0907]

Okay, y'all are making me feel more and more for Rachel. I really found myself unable to sympathize with her while reading, but you're all changing my mind, here.

[thelittleredm]

1. I personally feel that people tend to be nosey because something is lacking in their own social and personal life. I know for myself, if things aren't going on in my personal life or I'm unable to get out and socialize, I'm way more nosey than when things are going fine on those two fronts. I think the only extreme part is that she's connected to these people that she's made up in her mind; like she's part of their daily life when she isn't. I really feel like this was a result of her world being torn asunder but

2. Considering what said deep secrets were, I'm not surprised by the decisions to keep them to themselves. I don't think said secrets should've been kept just to their person but both secrets would've been tough to deal with, especially when their significant others would've reacted poorly. I feel bad that Megan didn't feel she could discuss things with her H, but given her circumstances and past experiences, I wouldn't have imagined this turning out any differently.
As for white lies and such, I don't know. I think it's natural for people to exaggerate the truth or dull it down depending on how they think someone will react. It's a difficult cycle to break. Personally, I don't mind little white lies like saying you spent that money at Target for house necessities when really you just wanted to purchase something for yourself. But it's something you have to keep an eye on in yourself because it's so easy to start lying about bigger and bigger things.

3. Lying to yourself is dangerous territory. It's easy to tell yourself that things are different than they are and the more frequently you do it, the more likely you are to start accepting those lies as truth. I think Rachel was doing that most of her married life. I honestly think she accepted her role in things because "they were her fault because of her drinking" when I'm sure, at first, she knew that was wrong in the back of her mind. It's hard to tell yourself the truth when the situation is about someone you love so much being abusive toward you or others.
Absolutely, people lie to themselves to move on. It's easier to move on from someone if you can convince yourself you're better off without them because XYZ that isn't true. It's easier to take blame onto yourself for a relationship dissolving than admitting the truth sometimes, because at least if you're the one to blame, you can't be too upset about them moving on and therefore you can move on because now that other person is happy. I think she let the blame of her being the abuser affect everything in her life at that point. She wanted to do anything for her ex's approval, she basically terrorized Anna's life because Anna didn't go through what she did in her relationship (yet), and she inserted herself into the solving of a woman's disappearance who she knew was probably missing due to foul play and then she messed everything up with that because she was wrong over and over again.

4. Infertility affects more than just your ability to have children. It affects your mental state because you "aren't good enough." To have her husband turn around and have a child immediately with his lover would have been devastating to anyone. With her history of alcohol dependence (probably due to the abuse in her relationship), it's not surprising that she turned to that to shut off all the feels.
Motherhood seems to drive every woman, whether they would admit it or not. For some, the idea is terrifying because of a past loss leading to feelings of ineptitude (Megan), or other reason that make it difficult to maintain a committed relationship with someone who wants children in their future. For some, the idea of motherhood is that it makes you complete; a real and whole woman. The problem with the latter is that it doesn't always have positive effects (like with Anna), but rather makes dealing with the inability to have children 10x worse (like with Rachel). I think the author did a good job of showing how the concept of motherhood can affect people different ways. I think a lot of people don't even realize how much this idea affects their own lives and decisions. Everyone admits that motherhood is something that is forced on every woman ever as the only future path and I think that it can be very damaging to a woman's mental state. It's a lot of pressure and Paula was very good at laying that out throughout the story.

5. While Rachel doesn't seem trustworthy in the typical sense (she accidentally lets information out that shouldn't be disclosed, etc.), I honestly think she's probably the most truthful person in the book just in a roundabout way. I think her past with Tom has influenced her sort of honesty and desire for truth. While her actions may have said otherwise, she always managed to expose some sort of truth that was supposed to stay hidden. Now, if only she would've been honest with herself, first.
I'd say 90% of the characters in this book weren't trustworthy. Granted, I don't think anyone is 100% trustworthy. There's always something we hide from others whether to keep them happier or because we think it'll make us unsafe.
Upon meeting someone new, I think body language and tone of voice are our first indications if someone is trustworthy. If they appear open and their body language seems to say they are safe, it's a lot easier to trust them with things we may otherwise hold back talking about. If you've never had any previous abuse in your background, a person seeming strong or protective can also be another indication that they are trustworthy because they're clearly willing to protect you so they must mean you no harm.

6. Rachel made me eye roll so much at the start of the story. I wanted to strangle her because of her incessant whiney attitude. As the story progressed, while I still think she's a simpering human being, I pitied her circumstances. She had her trust in people taken away time after time as the story rolled on and that's one of the worst feelings in my mind. I had the same sort of feelings about Megan as the story told her last few days. It really wasn't until the story of her past unraveled that my heart ached for her. Her, more than anyone else.
Tom was probably the only one my feelings toward didn't change as the story progressed. He went from slimey to atrocious. So, I guess they did change, just not positively.

[westisleflower]

I haven't finished either.... fail...

[onesweetworld]

I loved this book. I need to figure out when I can answer these questions because I want to

[ceejay]

I actually read this book a couple months ago, so it isn't as fresh in my mind. I've appreciated reading everyone's responses to the questions since that's helping to refresh my memory.

To be honest, I wasn't a huge fan of the book. It was good but not great... I think I had too high of expectations. I found Rachel to be a very frustrating character. I also guessed the ending of the book a few chapters before Rachel figured everything out, so I found the ending to be kind of predictable and slow.

I don't think I have too much to add to the discussion since I think you all answered the questions well. But here's a few of my thoughts:

1. I think it's totally normal to people watch. In general, people are fascinated with other people and the way they live their lives when they think no one is watching. Especially when your own life is boring or upsetting or sad... I think that increases peoples' tendencies to become focused/interested on others lives. Rachel took it a bit too far, but I admit that I used to come up with pretend life stories for people that I rode the train with when I used to commute farther to work.

2. Like others have said, I think it's okay to occasionally tell half truths to our spouses or to leave out details that aren't important or relevant. Sometimes I get snacks at fast food restaurants when I'm out shopping and don't tell my husband or get him anything. But the secrets and lies in Megan and Rachel's marriages were much more significant and hurtful.

5. I agree with samanthasays and thelittleredm that (surprisingly) Rachel was the most trustworthy character, but her alcoholism almost always got in the way. I was so frustrated that she kept falling back into her old ways of drinking but that's how it often goes with addictions.

6. The most surprising character to me was Anna. Even up until the very end, I wasn't sure how she was going to act. It was nice that her and Rachel ended up being on the same team after so much animosity between them previously. 

[samanthasays]

I think this book really made me see alcoholism in a different light. I have never known an alcoholic, but this book made me see how it happens. I read this for another book club and none of the ladies are TTC/IF, so they just bashed Rachel. But I told H I can see how IF can make you that way. I am NOT an empathetic person, so I love it when books bring that out of me.

[butlerfan]

I'm still on the witing list.

[peaseblossom55]

I read the book about 2 months ago now. I loved it.
I love to people watch but I did think it was odd she went to the extreme of making up fake lives for Meg and her husband. I absolutely hated Anna, and I feel like her ending in the book is a good fit.

I was a bit shocked by the ending, I figured Rachel had something to do with it in some way. There were so many great layers and interesting things to think about throughout the book, not to mention the suspense of it all too. I feel like I had much deeper thoughts into it immediately after reading than I do now though.

[rablissful]

I finished it! The first 10-15% were tough to get through (I read it on my kindle) but then it finally picked up and I zoned through the rest. And can I just say that this book was weird to read because two of the main characters shared my SO's and my names?

1. I think most people are nosy, particularly those who are down on their luck. Sometimes it's nice to fantasize about a perfect couple or perfect life. Or maybe we want too snoop because you hope someone had it worse than you. It's all about one's self. Rachel was more extreme in that when she finally met her fantasy people, she couldn't get her perfect life assumptions out of her head.

2. The marriages are extreme in the fact they are both abusive to some extent. Megan was known to cheat and her husband was known to snoop. I was in a relationship exactly like this when I was younger. It was literally the worst. We were poison to each other. Both of these cause extreme emotional damage to the other.

On the other end, Rachel's marriage was both physically and emotionally abusive. I was so pumped when Rachel finally had a sudden realization that she was not the abuser, but the abused.

I agree with others and think that half truths are sometimes necessary. For example, my SO found out that he needed to replace his car. He didn't tell me right away because I was in the middle of production week for drama and he didn't want to stress me out more. He eventually told me, just when the tone was right.

3. All three women were telling lies to themselves. Megan thinking she had to run away and cheat on her husband. Anna for thinking she had the perfect marriage and husband (minus the all horrible ex). And most importantly Rachel, who kept lying to herself that she needed to drink. I think all the lies they told themselves were keeping them of fully seeing what was in front of them. It was keeping them from dealing with the reality of their lives. Is it any different than other people lying to themselves? Nope.

Rachel's lie to herself about her drinking ultimately led to everything in her life unraveling. That unraveling, however, may not have been a bad thing given how horrible Tom was to her.

4. Rachel's need to be a mother is so great that when she isn't able to, she loses it. She turns to alcohol. It's basically how society still sees women as only good for having kids, and when they can't, they're worthless. Rachel felt worthless due to her IF. Nevermind the slap in the face about Anna's pregnancy. It's no wonder she went in a horrible downward spiral.

Anna (who is the fucking worst) has no idea what it is to have a hard time conceiving or what it's like to lose a child (like Megan). She made her ENTIRE LIFE about her child, and it still turned to shit on her. She is that stereotypical snot nosed woman who gives you that shitty TTC advice, like "stop staying out" or "put your legs up after he cums" etc. I wanted to strangle her.

I think Paula Hawkins may have been saying that no matter where you are in the "having children" process, your life will never be perfect. There will still be hard times. At least Rachel gets to move on with her life now. She can be someone. Anna on the other hand is a single mom who had a horrible husband. Try explaining that to Evie later in life.

5. I'm not sure anyone is trustworthy in this book, other than maybe Abdic, who we're made to assume ISN'T trustworthy. He fended off Megan, but still let her vent to him as a friend, without judgement. Rachel would be a close second, and moreso if she could get sober. She wore her heart and emotions on her sleeve, and while she did lie about her relations with Megan to Scott, she only wanted to help in her own deranged way. I personally don't trust anyone until I get to know them. I've been burned too many times.

6. I assumed Rachel had done the deed as well, given the black out. That quickly changed though when her memories started to be pieced together in her dreams. I thought Tom was such a great guy minus the cheating (again, supposedly Rachel was horrible when drunk) until close to the end.

I think how sociopathic Tom really was surprised me the most. He wasn't just abusive. He was a full on sociopath. That is scary shit.