NGKUR: Child Support

[Ray]

Okay, I know there is a blended family board but I don't want to just drop in there and mine for some info. I tried looking online without success so I thought I'd hit you guys up for some thoughts.

DH has two children with his first wife whom he pays child support to. It is less than what the judge would have calculated he pay by about 200$ but it is what XW agreed to (and is honestly the max we can afford currently anyway). I have ZERO problem with the general concept of child support. Here is my issue/question - what exactly is child support supposed to "cover"? Is it just the bare minimum (housing and food?) and then dentist visits, extracurricular sports, new clothes etc. are on top of that? Or is it supposed to be a here is the money and financially we are "even" (that sounds heartless but ykwim)

The reason why I ask: XW asks us for additional money all. the. time.  for example when back to school shopping she has asked for $200 bucks to get new clothes backpacks and supplies (assuming we are splitting the cost 50/50 HOW is she spending 200$/kid???) 

SPOILER: Click to show

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{Spoiler}
She's not. clearly.

Kids went to the dentist. She asked for $100 bucks to split the bill. Signed the kids up for soccer. She asked for another $80. 

Now if child support is only for food and shelter costs, fine. I will stop complaining about us bleeding money out to this woman, but I have a feeling that she is totally manipulating and squeezing DH for every penny she can get. He won't say anything to her because we are on good terms now and she has the potential to be a super bitch but we are trying to save up $$$ to have a kid of our own and its kind of difficult when we're constantly shipping it off to her for shit that we should already be paying for. no? gah

so yes sorry about the novel vent. please enlighten me on how child support is supposed to work.

[requiressnacks]

What is the custody arrangement? (ex. is it 50/50? is it every other weekend?)

[wirt2cute]

Just my 2 cents and speaking from my own experience. Child support should cover the needs of the child which could housing, clothing, food, and whatever else they need. But in actuality it will never cover everything that a child needs. I know that for me with my oldest son, my ex pays 500 per month which is less than our court orderd, but that amount does not cover anything except the money back in my pocket to cover what I have already paid for, that involves our son.

Your H is paying 200 less then what is calculated, so I would say that her asking for extra just covers the amount not paid. If he was paying the full amount I would say extra would be out of the question but that is just me.

[Ray]

She has full custody and we have "generous access to the children". Which basically means that if we give her notice and they don't have plans as a family she can't really say no to us seeing them.

In reality we have them every other weekend, half of the summer, march break, and half of christmas break.

I think it may just be a case of me being pissed off because she chooses not to work while carrying on a lifestyle that is more than she can afford with her current income and the number of children she has. Meanwhile we are struggling to save up to have our own child.

Actually the more I type the more I think I'm just putting blame on her for us not being able to TTC yet. idk. gah I really don't know maybe not? If DH won't say anything should I? can I ask to see receipts at least? I am paying the insurance premiums that cover the kids for dental health etc.

[rablissful]

Is the $200 less than what would normally be calculated in writing? If the amount he is currently paying is in writing regardless of whether or not it is less than what the judge would have ordered, then he technically/legally does not have to pay any more.

If she really does need more she could go back to coart and ask for the full amount.

[jags8]

Is there any reason they aren't sharing 50/50 custody?

I believe my dad paid a certain amount/month, and also helped with extra costs. After a few years my parents decided 50/50 was easier, financially speaking.

[Ray]

Jun 3, 2015 16:15:33 GMT -5 rablissful said:

Is the $200 less than what would normally be calculated in writing? If the amount he is currently paying is in writing regardless of whether or not it is less than what the judge would have ordered, then he technically/legally does not have to pay any more.

If she really does need more she could go back to coart and ask for the full amount.

Yes it is in writing. Thanks everyone for the replies so far. I think what really bothers me is what I mentioned above and the fact that she has a new camping trailer, and a boat, and a new cellphone but somehow needs to split the costs for haircuts, school supplies etc. I feel like she looks at that $800 as her own personal income because she knows she can just hit up DH to pay for the stuff the kids actually need. 

[Ray]

Jun 3, 2015 16:18:14 GMT -5 jags8 said:

Is there any reason they aren't sharing 50/50 custody?

I believe my dad paid a certain amount/month, and also helped with extra costs. After a few years my parents decided 50/50 was easier, financially speaking.

Originally it was because DH is in the military and was posted away. Now we are local for the long haul. When he brought it up she flat out told DH (but unfortunately we don't have it recorded or in writing) "I will never agree to 50/50 because then I will lose child support. "
The oldest continues to ask to live with us frequently (he just got 3 new step-sisters, and a new baby brother) in addition to his brother with DH and half-brother from XW's first relationship. I think he just wants his own space and attention but he is only 10 and can't decide legally for himself yet

[requiressnacks]

My sister is divorced with three kids and her ex has 50/50 custody. He still pays her a generous amount of child support, which essentially evens their salaries. (it was court ordered)

Child support covers: food, housing, clothes.

Their divorce decree outlined who pays for health related costs (excluding orthodontia). So, for example - if my sister takes them to the doctor and there is an $80 charge, my exBIL is legally required to pay that. It say so in the decree. He is also required to provide insurance for all 3 kids.

They split things like extra curricular activities (soccer, dance), braces, summer camp. Expenses like these are discussed and agreed upon ahead of time. My exBIL wanted to sign one of the kids up for clarinet lessons and my sister veto-ed it because she couldn't afford the equipment rental fee.

Sounds like the main issue that you guys have is she is not discussing these thing with you ahead of time and giving your H an opportunity to say "yes" or "no". She's treating him like an ATM.

[rablissful]

I don't think even YH is allowed to ask for receipts. If the extra money is really an issue you need to talk to YH about it. Maybe set up a "max extra" between the two of you, and when that is up you can just tell his ex that "sorry, we've paid support this month PLUS this amount extra and so we can't afford it right now."

Keep all the receipts from what you spend on them. Make copies of the checks you give her, including the extra money. She may get pissed if you cut her off and if you have good records it would look better in court.

[Ray]

Jun 3, 2015 16:22:41 GMT -5 requiressnacks said:

My sister is divorced with three kids and her ex has 50/50 custody. He still pays her a generous amount of child support, which essentially evens their salaries. (it was court ordered)

Child support covers: food, housing, clothes.

Their divorce decree outlined who pays for health related costs (excluding orthodontia). So, for example - if my sister takes them to the doctor and there is an $80 charge, my exBIL is legally required to pay that. It say so in the decree. He is also required to provide insurance for all 3 kids.

They split things like extra curricular activities (soccer, dance), braces, summer camp. Expenses like these are discussed and agreed upon ahead of time. My exBIL wanted to sign one of the kids up for clarinet lessons and my sister veto-ed it because she couldn't afford the equipment rental fee.

Sounds like the main issue that you guys have is she is not discussing these thing with you ahead of time and giving your H an opportunity to say "yes" or "no". She's treating him like an ATM.

Thank you - I think this is really the discussion that needs to happen. I feel like if they had stayed together and with their joint finances could not afford something, then they would not buy it. Maybe that is the root of the problem. She just shoots him a text and says btw I spent XX on YYY and you need to now pay me ZZ and there's no discussion as to whether or not we can afford that. 

[rablissful]

Jun 3, 2015 16:22:21 GMT -5 Ray said:

Jun 3, 2015 16:18:14 GMT -5 jags8 said:

Is there any reason they aren't sharing 50/50 custody?

I believe my dad paid a certain amount/month, and also helped with extra costs. After a few years my parents decided 50/50 was easier, financially speaking.

Originally it was because DH is in the military and was posted away. Now we are local for the long haul. When he brought it up she flat out told DH (but unfortunately we don't have it recorded or in writing) "I will never agree to 50/50 because then I will lose child support. "
The oldest continues to ask to live with us frequently (he just got 3 new step-sisters, and a new baby brother) in addition to his brother with DH and half-brother from XW's first relationship. I think he just wants his own space and attention but he is only 10 and can't decide legally for himself yet

She cannot technically just veto 50/50. Obviously it would be easier because then there wouldn't be a court case, but she can't just say no. She needs definitive proof YH can't reasonably take care of them 50% of the time, and I'm sure she knows she can't.

[jags8]

Jun 3, 2015 16:22:21 GMT -5 Ray said:

Jun 3, 2015 16:18:14 GMT -5 jags8 said:

Is there any reason they aren't sharing 50/50 custody?

I believe my dad paid a certain amount/month, and also helped with extra costs. After a few years my parents decided 50/50 was easier, financially speaking.

Originally it was because DH is in the military and was posted away. Now we are local for the long haul. When he brought it up she flat out told DH (but unfortunately we don't have it recorded or in writing) "I will never agree to 50/50 because then I will lose child support. "
The oldest continues to ask to live with us frequently (he just got 3 new step-sisters, and a new baby brother) in addition to his brother with DH and half-brother from XW's first relationship. I think he just wants his own space and attention but he is only 10 and can't decide legally for himself yet

Depending on the state, there is a certain age kids can have a say in where they live between two parents.

If DH wants 50/50, he should fight for it. Then all costs would be split, and most importantly, he could see his kids more (assuming he wants to).

I know this is kind of a tangent, but all of my best friends and I have divorced parents/blended families. I am the only one who had a 50/50 arrangement. My dad fought for me (not that my mom was against it). My friends still have strained relationships with their dads, who they didn't see much.

I dunno, just my perspective as a kid with divorced parents.

[Ray]

Jun 3, 2015 16:24:46 GMT -5 rablissful said:

I don't think even YH is allowed to ask for receipts. If the extra money is really an issue you need to talk to YH about it. Maybe set up a "max extra" between the two of you, and when that is up you can just tell his ex that "sorry, we've paid support this month PLUS this amount extra and so we can't afford it right now."

Keep all the receipts from what you spend on them. Make copies of the checks you give her, including the extra money. She may get pissed if you cut her off and if you have good records it would look better in court.

Thank you for this suggestion 

[rablissful]

Jun 3, 2015 16:27:57 GMT -5 Ray said:

Jun 3, 2015 16:22:41 GMT -5 requiressnacks said:

My sister is divorced with three kids and her ex has 50/50 custody. He still pays her a generous amount of child support, which essentially evens their salaries. (it was court ordered)

Child support covers: food, housing, clothes.

Their divorce decree outlined who pays for health related costs (excluding orthodontia). So, for example - if my sister takes them to the doctor and there is an $80 charge, my exBIL is legally required to pay that. It say so in the decree. He is also required to provide insurance for all 3 kids.

They split things like extra curricular activities (soccer, dance), braces, summer camp. Expenses like these are discussed and agreed upon ahead of time. My exBIL wanted to sign one of the kids up for clarinet lessons and my sister veto-ed it because she couldn't afford the equipment rental fee.

Sounds like the main issue that you guys have is she is not discussing these thing with you ahead of time and giving your H an opportunity to say "yes" or "no". She's treating him like an ATM.

Thank you - I think this is really the discussion that needs to happen. I feel like if they had stayed together and with their joint finances could not afford something, then they would not buy it. Maybe that is the root of the problem. She just shoots him a text and says btw I spent XX on YYY and you need to now pay me ZZ and there's no discussion as to whether or not we can afford that. 

Yeah that's an issue. If she wants extra money she needs to ok it with YH first. She can't assume you two are an ATM.

[Ray]

Thank you everyone so far for sharing your understanding of how child support works, your suggestions, and anecdotes. Truly and honestly I feel so lost in all of this sometimes and feel like I have no say in anything (which I know legally I don't). When our oldest turns 12 (the age he legally has a say) I think I will really push DH to file for 50/50 at least. That gives us 2 years to try and save up for a lawyer.

[rablissful]

Jun 3, 2015 16:33:02 GMT -5 Ray said:

Thank you everyone so far for sharing your understanding of how child support works, your suggestions, and anecdotes. Truly and honestly I feel so lost in all of this sometimes and feel like I have no say in anything (which I know legally I don't). When our oldest turns 12 (the age he legally has a say) I think I will really push DH to file for 50/50 at least. That gives us 2 years to try and save up for a lawyer.

That's a good idea, but for now you at least need to stop the ATM situation.

[Rama]

Jun 3, 2015 16:33:02 GMT -5 Ray said:

Thank you everyone so far for sharing your understanding of how child support works, your suggestions, and anecdotes. Truly and honestly I feel so lost in all of this sometimes and feel like I have no say in anything (which I know legally I don't). When our oldest turns 12 (the age he legally has a say) I think I will really push DH to file for 50/50 at least. That gives us 2 years to try and save up for a lawyer.

I'm going to burst your bubble here a bit.  Just doing a little bit of Googling shows me that a child never gets a legal right to say where he lives.  He can state where he wants to live to the judge, but the choice will be the judge's ultimately.  It is legal for a judge to go against the child's wishes, because they can choose one parent over another for any number of reasons.

My Google Search
Second Result
Fifth Result

I suppose I could be wrong, but I wouldn't encourage you to bank on a magical age and hope that that gets you your desired result.  Sorry. :(

[Ray]

Jun 3, 2015 16:32:43 GMT -5 @pineappleoranges said:

Jun 3, 2015 16:29:27 GMT -5 Ray said:

Thank you for this suggestion 

At ten the courts will listen to what he has to say and weigh it into a decision. It may easily be a situation where they use the chil support money to offset the other kids.

I think that is exactly what is happening if I am understanding you correctly. She recieves no support from the father of her first child (and does not pursue it). He current boyfriend asked to be laid off so that he could lower the payments he makes on his three kids (50/50 with HIS ex-wife) and they just had a baby together.  I do not expect her to deny her other children things that ours get because there is no support coming for them. I too would obviously equally allocate any funds I get for ALL my kids. Its just a shitty situation over all with too many cooks in the kitchen and I really just wish we could take our kids. We tried to get CPS in (the kids told us they were only allowed to have one bath a week and slept on the couches) but they somehow managed to pass the inspection so we legally can't take them without going back to court. 

[Ray]

Jun 3, 2015 16:38:34 GMT -5 Rama said:

Jun 3, 2015 16:33:02 GMT -5 Ray said:

Thank you everyone so far for sharing your understanding of how child support works, your suggestions, and anecdotes. Truly and honestly I feel so lost in all of this sometimes and feel like I have no say in anything (which I know legally I don't). When our oldest turns 12 (the age he legally has a say) I think I will really push DH to file for 50/50 at least. That gives us 2 years to try and save up for a lawyer.

I'm going to burst your bubble here a bit.  Just doing a little bit of Googling shows me that a child never gets a legal right to say where he lives.  He can state where he wants to live to the judge, but the choice will be the judge's ultimately.  It is legal for a judge to go against the child's wishes, because they can choose one parent over another for any number of reasons.

My Google Search
Second Result
Fifth Result

I suppose I could be wrong, but I wouldn't encourage you to bank on a magical age and hope that that gets you your desired result.  Sorry.

This sucks. Thank you for the leg work though rama. 

ETA:

I guess we can still hope that our reasons over overcrowding there, "better" living conditions here, and our oldest's wishes can help to overturn the decision.

[Rama]

Jun 3, 2015 16:40:35 GMT -5 Ray said:

Jun 3, 2015 16:38:34 GMT -5 Rama said:

I'm going to burst your bubble here a bit.  Just doing a little bit of Googling shows me that a child never gets a legal right to say where he lives.  He can state where he wants to live to the judge, but the choice will be the judge's ultimately.  It is legal for a judge to go against the child's wishes, because they can choose one parent over another for any number of reasons.

My Google Search
Second Result
Fifth Result

I suppose I could be wrong, but I wouldn't encourage you to bank on a magical age and hope that that gets you your desired result.  Sorry. :(

This sucks. Thank you for the leg work though rama. 

No problem.  It sucks enough to have go to through the situation, going in with the wrong impression wasn't something I wanted you to have to find out at the last minute.  *hugs*  I hope it works out.  My best advice would be to fight for you and your husband's children as soon as you are able/ready.

[Rama]

Jun 3, 2015 16:42:13 GMT -5 @pineappleoranges said:

Jun 3, 2015 16:38:34 GMT -5 Rama said:

I'm going to burst your bubble here a bit.  Just doing a little bit of Googling shows me that a child never gets a legal right to say where he lives.  He can state where he wants to live to the judge, but the choice will be the judge's ultimately.  It is legal for a judge to go against the child's wishes, because they can choose one parent over another for any number of reasons.

My Google Search
Second Result
Fifth Result

I suppose I could be wrong, but I wouldn't encourage you to bank on a magical age and hope that that gets you your desired result.  Sorry. :(

Better now than two years later.

My thoughts exactly.

[Ray]

You guys are amazing. I have to leave now to pick up our oldest and take him to soccer. But I will be able to check back in later tonight.

THANK YOUUUUUU!!!!!!

[shadesofgold]

I don't have personal experience as a parent or step-parent, but as a child of divorced parents I am just cringing. Please do these children a favor and never discuss this in front of them or make them an intermediary for their own expenses. It is so hurtful to see your parents compare receipts for who spends what on you.

Also, I don't quite understand why a 50/50 arrangement would solve the issue here. You're saying that you can't really afford anything above $200 per month. If you got more custody, you will be paying a lot more for the care of the children.

edit: spelling

[raelynn71109]

Jun 3, 2015 16:13:40 GMT -5 Ray said:

She has full custody and we have "generous access to the children". Which basically means that if we give her notice and they don't have plans as a family she can't really say no to us seeing them.

In reality we have them every other weekend, half of the summer, march break, and half of christmas break.

I think it may just be a case of me being pissed off because she chooses not to work while carrying on a lifestyle that is more than she can afford with her current income and the number of children she has. Meanwhile we are struggling to save up to have our own child.

Actually the more I type the more I think I'm just putting blame on her for us not being able to TTC yet. idk. gah I really don't know maybe not? If DH won't say anything should I? can I ask to see receipts at least? I am paying the insurance premiums that cover the kids for dental health etc.

If you want to gear up to taking her back to court and increasing parenting time, document the time your husband gets in the meantime. Since the current order is loosely worded, document his actual parenting time to prove to the court that he is exercising his time. And if there is anyway you can slowly get her to grant you guys more time and build up to an informal 50/50 schedule, that would go a long way. Keep asking for more and more time. Courts often look at the "status quo." So if you build up to as close to a 50/50 schedule as you can get then the judge will be more willing to make it official. And, if that doesn't work and she refuses to grant you guys more time, then that could look bad in court too and also help your case.

[paloslee]

My ex will not pay for any extras (school band, doctor visits, RX, dances...). He considers his child support to be all he needs to pay. He gives me $360/monthly. Let me just say $360 goes super fast. He stopped paying for a few years and now is on back pay. He owes a ton of money. That money I am slowly starting to see. It came at a good time because my son will need it for senior stuff and then college.

Depending on what their divorce agreement was. He then might have to pay for extras plus housing/food/clothing/wellness. My agreement was very simple. I have full custody. Dad gets visits and he pays monthly support.

[shadesofgold]

Jun 3, 2015 17:09:33 GMT -5 @ismellbooks said:

Jun 3, 2015 16:52:06 GMT -5 shadesofgold said:

I don't have personal experience as a parent or step-parent, but as a child of divorced parents I am just cringing. Please do these children a favor and never discuss this in front of them or make them an intermediary for their own expenses. It is so hurtful to see your parents compare receipts for who spends what on you.

Also, I don't quite understand why a 50/50 arrangement would solve the issue here. You're saying that you can't really afford anything above $200 per month. If you got more custody, you will be paying a lot more for the care of the children.

edit: spelling

+1 to the first paragraph. My dad never paid support, and it was always a struggle, and it was really hard on us kids. Please don't ever let them know how you feel about this.

But, shadesofgold, they're not paying $200, but $800 and throwing extra $$ at her whenever she asks – on top of their own household bills. Splitting custody would certainly level the seesaw.

By bad - just reread the OP that it is $200 less than what was agreed, not $200. Thanks for the correction. I guess my main confusion still stands, that asking for more responsibility will probably still cost more. Unless it costs less than $1600 a month ($800 x2) to house, clothe, feed and care for 2 children, which I suppose it could if they are both school age and not in daycare.

[Ray]

Jun 3, 2015 16:52:06 GMT -5 shadesofgold said:

I don't have personal experience as a parent or step-parent, but as a child of divorced parents I am just cringing. Please do these children a favor and never discuss this in front of them or make them an intermediary for their own expenses. It is so hurtful to see your parents compare receipts for who spends what on you.

Also, I don't quite understand why a 50/50 arrangement would solve the issue here. You're saying that you can't really afford anything above $200 per month. If you got more custody, you will be paying a lot more for the care of the children.

edit: spelling

Thank you for your concern - dont worry though we never (at least in our end) speak poorly about the kids' mother/her decisions to them. i think, even if valid lol, it is not okay to use the kids as pawns or try to damage their relationship with her/make them feel like an unwanted expense.

As for 50/50 costing more I honestly really don't think we be paying all that more because we wouldn't be paying as much child support. We already pay all the insurance premiums, half of all extra curriculars, hair cuts, clothes, etc. and do most of the running around for activities. We would also have more control over what the money is being spent on so for ex. The $200 that got sent to cover "school supplies" would cover supplies, a new outfit and a couple books or new soccer ball or something. I don't know how she shops but I am positive I could stretch a dollar further if only for the fact that I don't currently have other children I need to support with that dollar if ykwim.

Edit: crap I just typed this all out and then read further a saw the misunderstanding lol yes they are school age (8 and 10 already!! Time flies - I've been with them since they were 1 and 3 lol)

Thank you again every one for your level-headedness and help!

[juliayadda]

Hey Ray

If you were to go to court there is a strong possibility you would end up paying more child support. The judges are very hesitant to not follow their formula in Ontario.

Ontario family court judges will take into account what the children's wishes are. They will listen to this at any age but more weight is added to their opinion as they age.

What ex-wife spends the money on is her prerogative, but I hope she is not claiming all of the tax deductions for sports and arts.

I have never asked my ex for money for sports or piano, but he did once ask if he could claim them on his taxes #classy!

[Ray]

Jun 3, 2015 19:23:33 GMT -5 juliayadda said:

Hey Ray

If you were to go to court there is a strong possibility you would end up paying more child support. The judges are very hesitant to not follow their formula in Ontario.

Ontario family court judges will take into account what the children's wishes are. They will listen to this at any age but more weight is added to their opinion as they age.

What ex-wife spends the money on is her prerogative, but I hope she is not claiming all of the tax deductions for sports and arts.

I have never asked my ex for money for sports or piano, but he did once ask if he could claim them on his taxes #classy!

Oh you bet she does she also never mentions that she gets $800 monthly for Child support come tax time. (We found that out this year.