Can we talk about Tim Hunt?

[joy]

This article was floated by a friend of mine on Facebook. 

I've mostly been ignoring the Tim Hunt "scandal," but this article brings up a lot of things from sexism to science to the power of social media. 

www.theguardian.com/science/2015/jun/13/tim-hunt-hung-out-to-dry-interview-mary-collins

[pismoduo]

I feel like what he said was stupid and inappropriate, but the reaction to one single statement made during a stand-up comedy routine seems excessive.

I would have given him a month of unpaid leave and sent him to some sensitivity training. Honestly, an organization that does that looks much better to me that one that simply fires someone for one mistake without giving him a chance to defend himself.

[becwheat]

I didn't realize it was during a comedy routine.

[longhornwino0907]

Jun 16, 2015 11:38:45 GMT -5 becwheat said:

I didn't realize it was during a comedy routine.

I don't think it was. Just an oddly worded opening sentence to the article.

[LovesMeSomeCake]

This might be an UO, but I think a lot of people are looking for things to offend them. This guy made a dick move thinking this was a'jocular ironic' joke, but everything that has happened to him since feels like knee jerk reactions. Its kind of sad that his work could be hurt because of fear over potential butt hurt. I've been told my skin is too tough before though.

[longhornwino0907]

My feeling is this: people say stupid shit all the time. Things they don't mean, not really. Maybe a kernel of truth, but nothing more. But with social media the way it is today, people can't escape that. And that's a shame. Prior to Twitter and such, we could say something stupid, get a few groans or probing questions later, but then we could move on. Not the case anymore.

Not being in the field, I don't know much about Tim Hunt, but it seems he's done an awful lot for the scientific community. He said something dumb, but he shouldn't be crucified for that. Nor should his wife.

[♪♫choppinbroccoli♫♪]

My opinion:

Overreaction. People say stupid shit all the time. He acknowledged what he said was stupid, and he should have some kind of punishment. But to make him completely throw in the towel is cruel.

[♪♫choppinbroccoli♫♪]

longhornwino0907, jinx on "people say stupid shit all the time." LOL.

[pismoduo]

Jun 16, 2015 11:40:08 GMT -5 longhornwino0907 said:

Jun 16, 2015 11:38:45 GMT -5 becwheat said:

I didn't realize it was during a comedy routine.

I don't think it was. Just an oddly worded opening sentence to the article.

My bad. I misread that.

Doesn't change my opinion, though. This is the first time in a loooong career that this guy has said anything like that. It was a bad move, to be sure. But they've basically just burned his career to the ground without giving him a chance to make amends.

[pismoduo]

Jun 16, 2015 11:42:03 GMT -5 LovesMeSomeCake said:

This might be an UO, but I think a lot of people are looking for things to offend them. This guy made a dick move thinking this was a'jocular ironic' joke, but everything that has happened to him since feels like knee jerk reactions. Its kind of sad that his work could be hurt because of fear over potential butt hurt. I've been told my skin is too tough before though.

I'm with you on this. It seems like there are a lot of people out there who almost seem to WANT someone to say something offensive so they can get up on their soapbox and preach about it.

[kawaiikitsune]

I skimmed an article about it a few days ago, I believe. Initially, I was floored by some of his remarks. However, now that I'm aware that they were made during a comedy act, I don't find them as offensive. I don't feel he should be nailed to the wall over a flippant comedy routine. Sure, I'm fairly certain that there are men in the scientific field who truly feel that way about women in the profession but making an example out of him is a bit unfair. He apologized, acknowledged that he crossed the line, it should end there.

edit - Okay so it wasn't literally a comedy routine but my statements still stand.

[samanthasays]

On one hand...
I think if I was a female scientist I might be offended. Getting girls interested in pursuing higher education in math and science is difficult enough. These kinds of 'jokes' poke at an issue that is a legitimate problem. But should we lose a great scientific mind because of it? No. I think the media blew it out of proportion.

On the other hand...
I am a woman in a male dominated industry. There is one other woman at my office with my role. Other than that it is all men and a female receptionist. If I got offended about every joke or comment I heard about how I got my title at my age I would be miserable. At some point you just have to suck it up and move on. You can chose what offends you to a certain degree.

[hlm184]

Dude screwed up big time, there definitely should be consequences, but what's happening is a bit extreme.

[ceejay]

I had heard about this a few days ago, with the #distractinglysexy pictures that female scientists were posting on facebook and Twitter. But it was interesting to read about Tim Hunt and his wife's side of the story.

I agree that the overall reaction to his comment was extreme, and obviously social media was very powerful in spreading the news and possibly bringing about his forced resignation (which I think was unwarranted). But I think that the social media response happened the way that it did because this is a very sensitive issue and not something that should be taken lightly. I am a woman in science, and there is definitely still quite a bit of sexism in the field. If I had heard my manager or one of my male coworkers say something like this, I don't care how funny or ironic he was trying to be, I would have taken the comment personally because I have seen sexism play out in many other instances in my workplace. From this article, it sounds like Tim Hunt was not a sexist person and his comment wasn't intended to be as insulting and demeaning as it appeared to be, but I can understand why people reacted to his comment in the way that they did.

[rablissful]

Complete overreaction. I agree with PP- he should have been suspended, maybe sensitivity training, but straight up firing? That's a little much. Especially considering how long he has been in the field and how much good he has done, for both men and women.

[hlm184]

Coming back to this, since I thought more...

I think the worst part about this is that it's not like these were off the cuff remarks (or if they were, they shouldn't have been). This guy was asked to speak at this function, yes? Does he really expect me to believe that he gave absolutely zero thought to what he was going to say, especially how he was going to start? This was a meeting to talk about women in science and this guy did one of two things: he didn't actually think about what he was going to say and came up with it on the fly (not a good idea and I really don't believe this for a second anyway), or he thought about it and decided that this would be a great way to kick off his talk. That's a severe lack of judgement.

I don't think sacking him was over the top, but I think it was done too quickly and for the wrong reasons. I feel like they did it to avoid getting hammered in a social media witch hunt. They should have spoken with him and made their decision without the pressure of social media.

[longhornwino0907]

Jun 16, 2015 13:26:50 GMT -5 starbuck27 said:

If he had made one off-hand remark, I would have been more forgiving. However, he didn't. He dug his heels in, saying:

"I did mean the part about having trouble with girls. It is true that people - I have fallen in love with people in the lab and people in the lab have fallen in love with me and it's very disruptive to the science because it's terribly important that in a lab people are on a level playing field.”

And now that he had to resign he is suddenly very repentant? It was all a joke? I just don't buy it.

I'm not one to scream sexism right off the bat - but his comments were very clear and repeated.

I missed the bolded. Where was that mentioned? I agree that this indicates more belief in his original statement, and those kinds of remarks deserve consequences, and more than just sensitivity training I think.

[longhornwino0907]

Jun 16, 2015 13:37:56 GMT -5 starbuck27 said:

Jun 16, 2015 13:34:12 GMT -5 longhornwino0907 said:

I missed the bolded. Where was that mentioned? I agree that this indicates more belief in his original statement, and those kinds of remarks deserve consequences, and more than just sensitivity training I think.

BBC- www.bbc.com/news/uk-33077107

Thanks, hadn't seen that article. This thread is the first I've heard of this.

[samanthasays]

Jun 16, 2015 13:37:56 GMT -5 starbuck27 said:

Jun 16, 2015 13:34:12 GMT -5 longhornwino0907 said:

I missed the bolded. Where was that mentioned? I agree that this indicates more belief in his original statement, and those kinds of remarks deserve consequences, and more than just sensitivity training I think.

BBC- www.bbc.com/news/uk-33077107

I didn't see that either. In light of that his wife's claim that she is a feminist and wouldn't have put up with sexism from him reminds me a little too much of the whole "I'm not racist, I have black friends" thing. Sometimes people lie to themselves for so long about their own behavior or that of their spouses they lose sight of reality. 

[♪♫choppinbroccoli♫♪]

Jun 16, 2015 13:26:50 GMT -5 starbuck27 said:

If he had made one off-hand remark, I would have been more forgiving. However, he didn't. He dug his heels in, saying:

"I did mean the part about having trouble with girls. It is true that people - I have fallen in love with people in the lab and people in the lab have fallen in love with me and it's very disruptive to the science because it's terribly important that in a lab people are on a level playing field.”

And now that he had to resign he is suddenly very repentant? It was all a joke? I just don't buy it.

I'm not one to scream sexism right off the bat - but his comments were very clear and repeated.

I hadn't seen this interview, either. But even after seeing it, I keep going back and forth.

Part of me really doesn't think he understands why what he is saying is wrong. Like, I think what he is trying to say in your quote is that relationships in the lab cause complications.

But the other part of me wonders if he is insinuating that having a lab with no women around would make him better at his job. AKA "it's your fault that I'm distracted."

I think the "crying" part irritates me more. I work in plants with a LOT of non-PC male coworkers. One time, a guy that was training me made me cry. He freaked out at first, but I sternly told him that I did not want him to go easier on me just because I had a weak moment. Just because I cry doesn't mean I can't handle the job. How is that any different than any other emotional disturbance (yelling, losing your cool, etc.)?

[♪♫choppinbroccoli♫♪]

joy, it's quiet on your end!

[joy]

Jun 16, 2015 14:48:11 GMT -5 ♪♫choppinbroccoli♫♪ said:

joy, it's quiet on your end!

I have a lot of conflicting feelings.  I will be honest and say that most of them are about social media; very few are about what he actually said.

[pismoduo]

Jun 16, 2015 15:51:47 GMT -5 joy said:

Jun 16, 2015 14:48:11 GMT -5 ♪♫choppinbroccoli♫♪ said:

joy, it's quiet on your end!

I have a lot of conflicting feelings.  I will be honest and say that most of them are about social media; very few are about what he actually said.

I think Social Media is a part of what can be talked about for this issue. If it weren't for twitter, facebook, etc, what he said wouldn't have spread so fast. And it's clear to me that his University did not have a good plan in place for how to deal with something moving that fast, thus the knee jerk reaction. I think if he'd said this 10 years ago, it would have eventually gotten around and complaints would have eventually been sent to the University. But by then they would have been cognizant of it and would have had time to plan a response/course of action.

[joy]

Jun 16, 2015 16:34:45 GMT -5 pismoduo said:

Jun 16, 2015 15:51:47 GMT -5 joy said:

I have a lot of conflicting feelings.  I will be honest and say that most of them are about social media; very few are about what he actually said.

I think Social Media is a part of what can be talked about for this issue. If it weren't for twitter, facebook, etc, what he said wouldn't have spread so fast. And it's clear to me that his University did not have a good plan in place for how to deal with something moving that fast, thus the knee jerk reaction. I think if he'd said this 10 years ago, it would have eventually gotten around and complaints would have eventually been sent to the University. But by then they would have been cognizant of it and would have had time to plan a response/course of action.

It's hard because I think there were knee jerk reactions on all sides and social media really swept all those reactions across the world.

The question becomes: is that a bad thing?  To Tim Hunt, it really really is a bad thing.  But, in matters of importance, then it's a wonderful thing. 

I guess I feel that social media is a double-edged sword.  I want to rail so hard against it, but at the same time, this is the world we live in now.  Terrorists attack a cafe in Paris and the whole world knows about it in minutes.  One off-hand comment can destroy your career.  The picture of a kidnapped child can be spread among citizens in seconds.  One picture can be caught easily by someone else, placed on Facebook, shared by thousands, copied to thousands of hard drives the world over and ruin the life of another. 

And how do you protect your image anymore?  Liable is a prosecutable offense and yet once it's spread across Facebook and Twitter, does it really matter?  The damage is done.

How are we ever going to control that beast?  And should we want to?

These are things that I think about in relation to this situation.

[helloerrbody]

I'm in the minority because I don't think what he said was that terrible. Inappropriate and rude, yes, but not deserving of this reaction.

[RajahMD]

In case anyone isn't aware, the position he lost was an honorary one. He served the university as an ambassador for its programs. I can absolutely understand why they wouldn't want someone with sexist views representing them to those outside the university.

There's still quite a bit of sexism in medicine. None of my male classmates or co-residents have to deal with being mistaken for nurses because of their sex (even while wearing a large name tag that screams "doctor") and very few have probably dealt with the sexual harassment that face. Example: I once had a patient ask me to get in bed with him because he was cold and wanted to cuddle. So yeah, I have no tolerance for sexist bullshit like what he said.

[helloerrbody]

Jun 16, 2015 21:31:51 GMT -5 RajahMD said:

In case anyone isn't aware, the position he lost was an honorary one. He served the university as an ambassador for its programs. I can absolutely understand why they wouldn't want someone with sexist views representing them to those outside the university.

There's still quite a bit of sexism in medicine. None of my male classmates or co-residents have to deal with being mistaken for nurses because of their sex (even while wearing a large name tag that screams "doctor") and very few have probably dealt with the sexual harassment that face. Example: I once had a patient ask me to get in bed with him because he was cold and wanted to cuddle. So yeah, I have no tolerance for sexist bullshit like what he said.

You make very good points.  I didn't realize it was an honorary/ambassador type position.  And I'm sorry for the sexual harassment you face on the job, that sucks.