Making a Murderer discussion

[ameliabird]

Hey! Just finished the whole documentary yesterday. Wow.
Anyone want to discuss the show?

Do you think he's guilty?
Do you think the police planted evidence?

[lennonkdc]

I loved this so much more then I thought I would. IDK if he's guilty, but there was certainly some shady police work and that's the most terrifying thing to me.

[kokopelli]

I told DH, idk if he is guilty but he sure didn't get a fair trial. When his lawyers kept saying he is being treated like he was guilty, I thought that was very telling. I thought all the stuff with the nephew was more distressing than with Steven's trial and my heart breaks for that boy.

[cagoldi]

What theophania said.

I would burn shit down if my minor child was ever questioned without me or an attorney.

What the powers that be will do to obtain and perpetuate a conviction is terrifying.

[ameliabird]

I think that everything Brendan said should have been thrown out because of the shadiness of the interrogation and doing it without a lawyer or parent presence.

I think they were SO sure that he did it that nothing else mattered. Part of me thinks he did it but that they didn't have quite enough evidence to convict so they planted stuff.

I think Brendan has no clue what happened was coerced to say those things poor kid

[ameliabird]

But if Avery is guilty then how stupid to kill a woman while going through a lawsuit with the police dept for a wrongful conviction.

Anyone suspicious of another family member doing it? Maybe Brendan's brother?

[elebishi]

H and I are almost finished with the series. I don't know. I understand the point is to bring to light all of the apparent shadiness that happened with law enforcement (and there does appear to be a lot of it). But I also think it's ridiculous for people to jump on the not guilty bandwagon purely based on the show.

I find it hard to believe an entire community of law enforcement would put so much effort into framing this man, and not worrying about the real killer.

The show is designed to portray Avery as a victim. I can't take a solid stance either way, because I don't think it is presented fairly. I think Avery is guilty, and even so, the show had me questioning my stance. They did a fantastic, one-sided job. I'm sure you've all seen them, but there are plenty of articles highlighting evidence that was never touched upon in the show...which make Avery seem completely shady.

[dc2london]

I find the incompetence and arrogance at play in MaM deeply disturbing.
Obviously, the entire thing was edited to make both defendants look innocent. I can say that the officers questioning Brendan Dassey broke the law, his interrogation NEVER should have been admissable in court, and that those with limited cognitive function are protected for a reason. Not to mention the fact that the SAME judge was used for Avery's criminal and appelate trial, which is absurd.
I don't know whether they are guilty or innocent, but the criminal justice system failed Theresa Halbach.

[copperpoppy]

I'm only 4 episodes in a from the sound of it, I'm not going to feel any more settled than I do now about it. I am so furious how Brendan has been tangled up in this. I think they are both innocent and even if there's a sliver of me that does believe Steven Avery is guilty, the way that the case has been handled by law enforcement, unfortunately compromises the integrity of the case and cannot be fairly tried.

It's so sick. This with Adnan Seid (sp?) makes me completely lose faith in the criminal justice system. Which I'm sure was the point of all this. It's just sickening.

[ameliabird]

I agree it's pretty one sided and I can take it all with a grain of salt. That's why I can't make a stance on it. Part of me thinks he's guilty because how could they plant THAT much evidence?

[ronniesgirl]

What strikes me about Avery is that when you ask him about other crimes (like the cat), he tells you all about it. And for him not to crush the car seems absolutely absurd.

I don't believe that key was missed multiple times over, fell from behind a bookcase, but was also under slippers.

I also totally believe that when the sheriff's deputy (Colburn?) called in with the plate, he was looking at the car.

Despite all this, it left me thinking, "eh, I don't know."

Brendan Dassey breaks my heart. That part in the first taped interrogation when he starts reminding his mother that he has a report to turn in. He doesn't have a clue.

[copperpoppy]

I don't think it's that uncommon for the same judge to preside over an appeal. I guess I don't really know. And I did notice that the documentary make fun of the media for being excited to have this story. They were just oozing about it. But this documentary basically exists for the same reason.

I think that's a huge part of this. It's so sensationalized by the media that people forget this isn't a "story", it's someone's life. In this case several people's life.

I was surprised that Jodis PO could issue a stay away order from the Averys. I don't understand how that's legally enforceable. It seemed like they were trying to isolate Steven from any support system and hope he had. Ugh. So many thoughts.

[shanny]

I just finished this last weekend after three days of binge watching when DD went to sleep. As an attorney, I found a lot of it very interesting. It was very cool to see so much footage from the trials, interviews, and press coverage because the filmmakers were already interested in Avery's story. Of course it was selectively edited to propose a certain slant, but I will say that some of the attorneys' techniques and practices were awful. Also, the law enforcement officers' handling of the cases was also egregious. I will be interested to see if Avery's new attorney (she was just hired on recently) is indeed able to get him a new trial and what that would lead to. Documentaries like this certainly would make it harder to find a good jury that is unaware or unexposed to the case if they are looking for it to go back to the trial court level and not just appellate.

[ronniesgirl]

Jan 13, 2016 16:33:14 GMT -5 copperpoppy said:

I don't think it's that uncommon for the same judge to preside over an appeal. I guess I don't really know. And I did notice that the documentary make fun of the media for being excited to have this story. They were just oozing about it. But this documentary basically exists for the same reason.

I think that's a huge part of this. It's so sensationalized by the media that people forget this isn't a "story", it's someone's life. In this case several people's life.

I was surprised that Jodis PO could issue a stay away order from the Averys. I don't understand how that's legally enforceable. It seemed like they were trying to isolate Steven from any support system and hope he had. Ugh. So many thoughts.

IIRC, the hearing was a post conviction hearing as opposed to an appeal.

[juliayadda]

Here is what I have to say:

In our criminal justice system one must be sure beyond a reasonable doubt that he was guilty. I dont lnow for sure but I have reasonable doubt.

Also the court, police, judge, jury all seemed to think he was guilty before the trial started. It is ingrained in criminal law that we innocent until proven guilty, and the burden of proof is on the crown.

I am most angry over the lawyer for Brendan. He was terrible.

Brendan's story is heart breaking.

In Canada we have media black outs for high profile crimes. It is to avoid this type or juror bias. It isnt perfect but I think it is very important.

[lennonkdc]

shanny, what kind of law do you practice?

As a criminal defense atty, I can say that shady things happen way more often than the public would be comfortable with. Probation can 100% legally issue no contact orders if the PO deems the person 'toxic' or a risk to the probationer's recidivism. Officer's play down their intentions in questioning juveniles to make sure parents are there. And Judges make questionable calls on letting in evidence every day. Everyone wants to be tough on crime, but if its you or someone you love accused of a crime it starts feeling like a bad dream, there are serious flaws in the system and I applaud MaM and Serial for helping bring these issue in the light. <<Steps off soap box>>

[shanny]

lennonkdc I practiced employment discrimination. Right now I'm taking a break from litigation to raise the kids...who knows if I'll go back.

Man, being a criminal attorney must be so stressful, mentally challenging, and extremely rewarding! It's very sad to hear what you have seen with shady practices by law enforcement.

[lennonkdc]

shanny, I love what I do, but it's not with out its challenges. I will say that the majority of the officers I've delt with are great people just doing their jobs, but the shady ones I've seen, wow, they are horrible.

[ronniesgirl]

I thought this raised some interesting points:

www.jsonline.com/news/crime/making-a-murderer-compelling-but-is-it-a-game-changer-in-steven-avery-case-b99647809z1-364794271.html?ipad=y

[ameliabird]

Totally agree that there was reasonable doubt in this case.

[ameliabird]

I read an article today that showed some of the evidence that wasn't shown in the documentary or the trial and it definitely points to Avery.