PSA Regarding Mentioning Losses

[Deleted]

I love that we have so many PgALs on here, it's really beautiful.

Just a reminder that mentioning losses and tough times during pregnancy can be a major trigger for others.

When you mention one, please put either a "Trigger Warning" or "Loss Mentioned" above what you're about to say so people can make their own decision whether to read on or not. 

[adorebel]

Thank you, that is a good reminder. I hadn't thought of that because I spent so much time on a loss board where it was par for the course. Note to self.

[stina2015]

Jul 9, 2015 2:14:48 GMT -5 @sarahwithanh said:

*lurking*
This post really rubs me the wrong way.

I think we, as a society and TCF community, need to stop telling women to not talk about pregnancy loss openly. This viewpoint is isolating and creates a culture of shame regarding pregnancy loss.
Pregnancy loss is not contagious or something to be ashamed of.

I do know this post was well intentioned, but think about how it would make you feel if you were a women who experienced a loss (probably one of the most painful things a mother can experience).

I have more feels about this, but I'm having trouble articulating at the moment.

I'll bite...

I believe a large majority on the board are PGAL ladies. I'm on mobile and can't see tickers so I'm not sure if you are in that group as well. I'm a very early PGAL (loss at 6 weeks last time).

Generally loss posts do include a trigger warning. It is considered good etiquette in the TCF/TD community. I'll add that the community views loss very much without shame, in fact it's a community that feels loss quite heavily. Everyone is entitled to their feels, I did want to provide some background and a different perspective.

[adorebel]

@sarahwithanh, Hi CAL friend!

I hear you that we spend a lot of time as loss moms worrying about talking about our feelings or making others uncomfortable, and I think what is so liberating about CAL is being able to talk about losses without reservation.

However, those of us who are PGAL here and having a tough day can still talk about our losses sans trigger warning in the PGAL check-in and in any thread on CAR. If it's appropriate to this community to include trigger warnings in regular threads on other boards, including BMBs, I'm ok with that, especially if it protects the feelings of other PGAL moms.

My understanding is that @pugsandwine suggested this to protect other loss moms here who are anxiously PGAL - and there are a lot of us! For that reason, I personally didn't take offense, and I was among the PGALs mentioning loss without a trigger warning in some of my posts here. I had simply gotten so used to being able to do that on CAL that I had forgotten that the etiquette was to post a trigger warning elsewhere.

I guess the difficult thing here is that loss is so painful and grief is so unpredictable and everyone experiences it so differently that we will probably never be able to protect everyone's feelings all of the time, as your post points out. I appreciate your point that grieving a loss is never something to be ashamed of, though.

[rablissful]

Jul 9, 2015 2:14:48 GMT -5 @sarahwithanh said:

*lurking*
This post really rubs me the wrong way.

I think we, as a society and TCF community, need to stop telling women to not talk about pregnancy loss openly. This viewpoint is isolating and creates a culture of shame regarding pregnancy loss.
Pregnancy loss is not contagious or something to be ashamed of.

I do know this post was well intentioned, but think about how it would make you feel if you were a women who experienced a loss (probably one of the most painful things a mother can experience).

I have more feels about this, but I'm having trouble articulating at the moment.

I don't think she's trying to "shame" pregnancy loss, she just asked people to put trigger warnings so that if those of us who are having a bad PGAL day can choose to skip it. I know my head is already going crazy and I've known I'm KU for like 8 seconds. I'm actually dealing with my previous loss a little worse KU than I was not KU. No, loss is not contagious, but if there's a post talking about loss and I'm in a bad head space I may want to pass over it instead of having a melt down.

Tl;dr she wrote this out of respect for loss moms, not those who haven't had a loss and are scared to.

[Deleted]

Jul 9, 2015 2:14:48 GMT -5 @sarahwithanh said:

*lurking*
This post really rubs me the wrong way.

I think we, as a society and TCF community, need to stop telling women to not talk about pregnancy loss openly. This viewpoint is isolating and creates a culture of shame regarding pregnancy loss.
Pregnancy loss is not contagious or something to be ashamed of.

I do know this post was well intentioned, but think about how it would make you feel if you were a women who experienced a loss (probably one of the most painful things a mother can experience).

I have more feels about this, but I'm having trouble articulating at the moment.

I actually feel that loss is an open topic on this board, with no shame. Mentioning this etiquette is just being thoughtful of those who might not want to read/discuss on a given day. I did not take it to mean that in anyway it was a taboo topic, but instead a way to be very sensitive.

[peachesncream]

I feel like this was written to protect moms who haven't had a loss and are experiencing some anxiety (which I believe is the camp pugsandwine falls into).

Personally as someone else who has never experienced a loss I think the community should be open. It doesn't bother me and I think the trigger warnings are only necessary on the IF boards. Hey, it IS Thursday right? Starting the UOs early ;-)

Also this comes across as really preachy which totally rubs me the wrong way.

[adorebel]

Jul 9, 2015 8:11:15 GMT -5 peachesncream said:

I feel like this was written to protect moms who haven't had a loss and are experiencing some anxiety (which I believe is the camp pugsandwine falls into).

Personally as someone else who has never experienced a loss I think the community should be open. It doesn't bother me and I think the trigger warnings are only necessary on the IF boards. Hey, it IS Thursday right? Starting the UOs early ;-)

Also this comes across as really preachy which totally rubs me the wrong way.

Which part comes across as preachy to you - the request to include trigger warnings or the response? 

As a BMB, which is pretty much a closed community, we could vote on our own policy. *shrug*

I don't mind either way, but I want to avoid hurting anyone here, and especially causing any fellow PGAL moms anxiety, so I'm happy to include trigger warnings for that reason.  

[peachesncream]

Jul 9, 2015 8:20:01 GMT -5 adorebel said:

Jul 9, 2015 8:11:15 GMT -5 peachesncream said:

I feel like this was written to protect moms who haven't had a loss and are experiencing some anxiety (which I believe is the camp pugsandwine falls into).

Personally as someone else who has never experienced a loss I think the community should be open. It doesn't bother me and I think the trigger warnings are only necessary on the IF boards. Hey, it IS Thursday right? Starting the UOs early ;-)

Also this comes across as really preachy which totally rubs me the wrong way.

Which part comes across as preachy to you - the request to include trigger warnings or the response? 

As a BMB, which is pretty much a closed community, we could vote on our own policy. *shrug*

I don't mind either way, but I want to avoid hurting anyone here, and especially causing any fellow PGAL moms anxiety, so I'm happy to include trigger warnings for that reason.  

The fact that someone who never introed on this board and has never experienced a loss is telling us what to do.

If PGAL moms are the ones we're trying to protect then I would like to allow PGAL moms to dictate what they would like.

[adorebel]

Jul 9, 2015 8:24:38 GMT -5 peachesncream said:

Jul 9, 2015 8:20:01 GMT -5 adorebel said:

Which part comes across as preachy to you - the request to include trigger warnings or the response? 

As a BMB, which is pretty much a closed community, we could vote on our own policy. *shrug*

I don't mind either way, but I want to avoid hurting anyone here, and especially causing any fellow PGAL moms anxiety, so I'm happy to include trigger warnings for that reason.  

The fact that someone who never introed on this board and has never experienced a loss is telling us what to do.

If PGAL moms are the ones we're trying to protect then I would like to allow PGAL moms to dictate what they would like.

I think @pugsandwine did intro! And I think what she's suggesting is just standard TCF etiquette, but if we want to vote on a different policy for M'16, which has a lot of us PGALs, we could certainly do that. 

[Deleted]

I think it is a great idea to let the PGAL ladies decide. However, the idea of trigger warnings really is for a lot of topics: any kind of death including pregnancy loss, suicide, rape, abuse, etc. From what I have seen that is pretty standard.

[Deleted]

Holy shit, guys. I was really truly just trying to protect Pgals and CALers. I know that on other boards it's standard and I can only imagine how jarring it could be to be going through the boards and hit by something you didn't necessarily want to be reminded of that day.

This was only me trying to create a line of protection for people to legitimately feel safe in posting and reading.

As for the remarks about me shaming or silencing women who have suffered losses, well...  You don't know me at all and if you knew me even a little bit you'd know that couldn't be farther from the truth on that matter. Good God what an awful thing to accuse someone of. The entire point of my post was the exact opposite, actually.

[Deleted]

Jul 9, 2015 8:24:38 GMT -5 peachesncream said:

Jul 9, 2015 8:20:01 GMT -5 adorebel said:

Which part comes across as preachy to you - the request to include trigger warnings or the response? 

As a BMB, which is pretty much a closed community, we could vote on our own policy. *shrug*

I don't mind either way, but I want to avoid hurting anyone here, and especially causing any fellow PGAL moms anxiety, so I'm happy to include trigger warnings for that reason.  

The fact that someone who never introed on this board and has never experienced a loss is telling us what to do.

If PGAL moms are the ones we're trying to protect then I would like to allow PGAL moms to dictate what they would like.

Seriously? I've been one of the most active posters on this board and did intro. 

Whatever guys - I'm sorry I posted. This clearly was taken the wrong way. I sincerely apologize to anyone I hurt through this. 

[peachesncream]

Jul 9, 2015 9:13:15 GMT -5 @pugsandwine said:

Jul 9, 2015 8:24:38 GMT -5 peachesncream said:

The fact that someone who never introed on this board and has never experienced a loss is telling us what to do.

If PGAL moms are the ones we're trying to protect then I would like to allow PGAL moms to dictate what they would like.

Seriously? I've been one of the most active posters on this board and did intro. 

Whatever guys - I'm sorry I posted. This clearly was taken the wrong way. I sincerely apologize to anyone I hurt through this. 

"I'M HERE AND READY TO PARTY" doesn't really count as an intro to me.  I only went looking for your intro to see your loss history.

[Deleted]

Jul 9, 2015 9:11:30 GMT -5 @pugsandwine said:

Holy shit, guys. I was really truly just trying to protect Pgals and CALers. I know that on other boards it's standard and I can only imagine how jarring it could be to be going through the boards and hit by something you didn't necessarily want to be reminded of that day.

This was only me trying to create a line of protection for people to legitimately feel safe in posting and reading.

As for the remarks about me shaming or silencing women who have suffered losses, well...  You don't know me at all and if you knew me even a little bit you'd know that couldn't be farther from the truth on that matter. Good God what an awful thing to accuse someone of. The entire point of my post was the exact opposite, actually.

I took it as you intended!

[Deleted]

Jul 9, 2015 9:18:56 GMT -5 @sarahwithanh said:

I don't believe I've ever seen another board "tell" people to add warnings. I would naturally do that, but being told I have to feels wrong. That is what I take issue with not the warnings themselves. Also this did not come across as protecting PGAL moms to me. I agree with peachesncream that it felt like it was protecting those who had not one. It felt like a nice scolding to those who had been talking about them without warnings.

Also TCF is typically very loss friendly, but telling people how and when to speak of losses in my opinion is not. That is how this post came across to me.

I have seen other boards including my BMB gently remind people that they may want to go back and add a warning to a sensitive topic.

[Deleted]

Jul 9, 2015 9:18:56 GMT -5 @sarahwithanh said:

I don't believe I've ever seen another board "tell" people to add warnings. I would naturally do that, but being told I have to feels wrong. That is what I take issue with not the warnings themselves. Also this did not come across as protecting PGAL moms to me. I agree with peachesncream that it felt like it was protecting those who had not one. It felt like a nice scolding to those who had been talking about them without warnings.

Also TCF is typically very loss friendly, but telling people how and when to speak of losses in my opinion is not. That is how this post came across to me.

Well, we're just going to have to disagree here and clearly my intent wasn't clear to you or Peaches. Again - sorry. 

And I beg you to reread it. There is no scolding there at all. And I'm not new to these boards or this community. People post reminders of this all the time. 

[Deleted]

Jul 9, 2015 9:19:45 GMT -5 peachesncream said:

Jul 9, 2015 9:13:15 GMT -5 @pugsandwine said:

Seriously? I've been one of the most active posters on this board and did intro. 

Whatever guys - I'm sorry I posted. This clearly was taken the wrong way. I sincerely apologize to anyone I hurt through this. 

"I'M HERE AND READY TO PARTY" doesn't really count as an intro to me.  I only went looking for your intro to see your loss history.

Wow. Okay.

I'm 29. DH is 34. I live in TX. I have PCOS and we tried for six months before getting our BFP in June. 
I have been an active participant on these boards since 2014. 
That is a picture of my face in my profile pic. 
I also love pugs. And wine.

Better?

[rablissful]

Jul 9, 2015 9:33:44 GMT -5 @pugsandwine said:

Jul 9, 2015 9:19:45 GMT -5 peachesncream said:

"I'M HERE AND READY TO PARTY" doesn't really count as an intro to me.  I only went looking for your intro to see your loss history.

Wow. Okay.

I'm 29. DH is 34. I live in TX. I have PCOS and we tried for six months before getting our BFP in June. 
I have been an active participant on these boards since 2014. 
That is a picture of my face in my profile pic. 
I also love pugs. And wine.

Better?

ILY.

I just had a black pug laying on my lap. Thought you should know.

[Deleted]

Jul 9, 2015 9:46:32 GMT -5 rablissful said:

Jul 9, 2015 9:33:44 GMT -5 @pugsandwine said:

Wow. Okay.

I'm 29. DH is 34. I live in TX. I have PCOS and we tried for six months before getting our BFP in June. 
I have been an active participant on these boards since 2014. 
That is a picture of my face in my profile pic. 
I also love pugs. And wine.

Better?

ILY.

I just had a black pug laying on my lap. Thought you should know.

ILY2.

Both of my pugs are black! I just love them so much. 

[rablissful]

Jul 9, 2015 9:51:32 GMT -5 @pugsandwine said:

Jul 9, 2015 9:46:32 GMT -5 rablissful said:

ILY.

I just had a black pug laying on my lap. Thought you should know.

ILY2.

Both of my pugs are black! I just love them so much. 

You forgot to mention your most BA quality... You play with FIRE for WORK.

[Deleted]

Jul 9, 2015 9:50:47 GMT -5 @sarahwithanh said:

Jul 9, 2015 9:30:53 GMT -5 @pugsandwine said:

Well, we're just going to have to disagree here and clearly my intent wasn't clear to you or Peaches. Again - sorry. 

And I beg you to reread it. There is no scolding there at all. And I'm not new to these boards or this community. People post reminders of this all the time. 

I just want to address you personally as I have seen you around and actually really like you. I think we may have both taken each others posts the wrong way to some extent. I do know enough about you to know that your intent was absolutely not malicious or meant to shame. (For some reason I always picture you as a feminist/equality warrior). All that said I think that many of these long held "norms" about how you should talk about MC have a silencing/shaming effect regardless of intent. I also think gently reminding someone based on a specific post is completely different than a separate thread warning everyone. Now can we disagree on it and move on, absolutely. I really hope I will be able join this community, and that you can see where I'm coming from even if you disagree.

Eta: words, grammar

Thank you for this. I appreciate it. I also know that it's possible to agree to disagree and so long as you didn't think I was being malicious or shaming, then we are good. It's just so against my entire being to legitimately shame others that it feels so far out of left field when someone thinks that of me. 

And you're right! I'm totally a feminist/equality warrior. 

Hope you can join us, too. And I do see where you're coming from but continue to emphasize it's not my intention.  

[readinglove]

Complete change of subject, because I have a question.

Do I add a warning only when talking specifically about the losses? For example, if I say something like, "With my first BFP..." does that need a warning? I want to make sure I'm doing things "right" so that I don't unintentionally hurt someone. Because I think all of the ladies here are pretty bitchin'.

[almachs0786]

ILY @pugsandwine

peachesncream I think your argument is kind of invalid. You said that one of the most active posters shouldn't get to "tell us what to do" just because she didn't intro to your standards... But it's ok for @sarahwithanh , who is just lurking, to come in here and tell her she's wrong and that we should do it a different way?!
That's what rubs me the wrong way!!

Also, as someone who has experienced a loss, I really appreciate the trigger warnings, just in case I'm having a rough day. Which has been a lot, since it still doesn't feel 100% real just yet.

[peachesncream]

Jul 9, 2015 21:00:13 GMT -5 almachs0786 said:

ILY @pugsandwine

peachesncream I think your argument is kind of invalid. You said that one of the most active posters shouldn't get to "tell us what to do" just because she didn't intro to your standards... But it's ok for @sarahwithanh , who is just lurking, to come in here and tell her she's wrong and that we should do it a different way?!
That's what rubs me the wrong way!!

Also, as someone who has experienced a loss, I really appreciate the trigger warnings, just in case I'm having a rough day. Which has been a lot, since it still doesn't feel 100% real just yet.

Please read what I said again.  I never said what @sarahwithanh did was okay.

[rablissful]

Jul 9, 2015 10:13:18 GMT -5 readinglove said:

Complete change of subject, because I have a question.

Do I add a warning only when talking specifically about the losses? For example, if I say something like, "With my first BFP..." does that need a warning? I want to make sure I'm doing things "right" so that I don't unintentionally hurt someone. Because I think all of the ladies here are pretty bitchin'.

I think that'd be fine without a warning.

[adorebel]

Jul 10, 2015 8:10:05 GMT -5 rablissful said:

Jul 9, 2015 10:13:18 GMT -5 readinglove said:

Complete change of subject, because I have a question.

Do I add a warning only when talking specifically about the losses? For example, if I say something like, "With my first BFP..." does that need a warning? I want to make sure I'm doing things "right" so that I don't unintentionally hurt someone. Because I think all of the ladies here are pretty bitchin'.

I think that'd be fine without a warning.

So you could probably say something like "Last pregnancy I had really bad MS/traveled in the first trimester," but not "I was sick the whole time/traveled weekly until our loss at x weeks," right? It's the mention of loss itself?

[rablissful]

Jul 10, 2015 8:15:18 GMT -5 adorebel said:

Jul 10, 2015 8:10:05 GMT -5 rablissful said:

I think that'd be fine without a warning.

So you could probably say something like "Last pregnancy I had really bad MS/traveled in the first trimester," but not "I was sick the whole time/traveled weekly until our loss at x weeks," right? It's the mention of loss itself?

Probably?

[girpipley]

I'm chiming in here... Personally, this thread did rub me the wrong way, and I felt a little sheepish after reading it.
I had just posted my intro, and posted on the appointment threads, in which I mentioned my twins who passed in Feb.

I have been an active member of TB since 2009, and know he community's tone/MO pretty well, and did not feel that I needed to add a warning to my posts. After reading this, I immediately added warnings, but it left a bad taste in my mouth.

My twins died in my arms, after 6 miserable weeks of hospital bedrest, where hope and disappointment danced on a sick twisted line of bleak reality. I talk about them, often. In person, online, wherever. Having to add a trigger warning every time I want to mention them, makes me feel uncomfortable here. It makes me feel like they are considered "graphic" or "traumatic", when in my eyes, they are my sons, and I want to talk about them.

I will say, that I do not think you are trying to shame anyone, and I'm not angry about the post, but I wanted you to know how I (a mom who has watched her children take their last breaths) felt about them requiring a warning when spoken about.

I have also had 3 MC now.

As a loss mom, the posts that are triggering things for me, are the ones that mentioned being terrified of the thought of twins... That, is a trigger.

I understand that when someone is posting about a current loss, it's appropriate to warn others, however, I feel the PGAL community is likely the least offended/effected by mentions of past loss, though I could be wrong.

[adorebel]

girpipley, sending you all the  Thank you for a brave and personal post.

I myself do not feel triggered at all by other loss moms mentioning past, or even current, losses. I feel empathy and I relate to their pain, but I don't feel "triggered." It's hard to explain.

Perhaps this is why I also forgot that the etiquette was to include warnings. TBH, I often find the trigger warnings more jarring and painful to read and to write than the things they are supposed to warn about, but I want to respect the community and avoid hurting anyone's feelings if possible. Unfortunately, I think the wide variety of responses here goes to show that no policy will ever be just the right fit for all of us.

We might seriously consider making a policy specific to this BMB and voting on it, though.