Did someone say "Harry Potter Thread"?

[joy]

Jun 5, 2015 17:16:08 GMT -5 @pineappleoranges said:

Jun 5, 2015 17:06:38 GMT -5 joy said:

Do I have this right? Yes. And then hearing twice (the hat and getting the twin wand to Voldemorts) that he had something in common with Voldemort made him want to be extra to good to compensate for any lingering darkness/evil within him

I gotcha.  I gotcha.

[joy]

Jun 5, 2015 17:17:52 GMT -5 mlgnumbers said:

Jun 5, 2015 16:59:09 GMT -5 joy said:

And I just read a very interesting piece on cracked that explains how perhaps Hogwarts was all in Harry's head as a way to escape from the abuse he was dealing with at home.

Well fuck.

IGNORE THAT SHIT

Meh.  I like all the theories.

[mlgnumbers]

Gah. I'm at dinner with the fam.

[housecarder]

Jun 5, 2015 17:16:08 GMT -5 @pineappleoranges said:

Jun 5, 2015 17:06:38 GMT -5 joy said:

Okay, but this isn't totally answering my question.

I'm sorry - I want to get your theory.  So, all the adults in Harry's life neglected him.  We have no idea why, though?  Is that what you're saying?  It seems like someone should have looked a little deeper into Harry's life to understand, but no one did. 

So, you don't think that Dumbledore was purposefully emotionally abusing Harry - he was just neglecting him?  Same with Snape, McGonagall, Hagrid, etc? I think that to Dumbledore, Harry was a means to an end. I feel that it there were too many adults that never questioned him never wanting to go home, him wearing rags outside of his uniform and not being concerned that he lived in a cupboard.

Also, you don't think Petunia and Vernon were sitting around beating Harry, but they emotionally abused the hell out of him. Yes, I think the first two books to me hinted at serious abused like him being caged in his room with bars on his windows. (Book 2)

Do you think that Mrs. Figg knew? I believe that Dumbledore felt the end justified the means,


Since he was left on his own constantly and failed by all the adults, he compensated by being this kid who just wanted to please everyone (going back to the conversation in FFFC)? 

Do I have this right? Yes. And then hearing twice (the hat and getting the twin wand to Voldemorts) that he had something in common with Voldemort made him want to be extra to good to compensate for any lingering darkness/evil within him

But they did do something about him living in a cupboard and having bars on his windows. It was them mentioning that he lived in the cupboard that he got a room. And when he didn't respond to their letters the Weasleys went and got him.
I think that you are right that he always felt he had something to prove with the sorting hat wanting to put him in slytherin, and knowing that he was idolized in this new world. But he constantly broke rules and was reckless in how he went about doing it. I wouldn't consider that an overly good kid, just one with a hero complex.

[Deleted]

Wait a minute. I distinctly remember Harry's aunt saying she had been jealous of her sister going to Hogwart's. It makes sense, in a fucked up way, that she keep all knowledge of wizardry away from Harry.

* not a hardcore fan.

[rablissful]

Jun 5, 2015 17:09:59 GMT -5 @pineappleoranges said:

Jun 5, 2015 17:08:20 GMT -5 housecarder said:

But it wasn't until he got the memory from Slughorn that he knew about all the horcruxes, so I'm sure even if he had suspicions he didn't know Harry was a horcrux.

No, He had an idea that Voldemort made Horcrux. I believe the memory was the confirmation of where he learned the information.

He had an idea Voldemort did SOMETHING. I don't think he realized it was an actual horcrux though.

[housecarder]

Jun 5, 2015 17:26:37 GMT -5 @wallflwr926 said:

Wait a minute. I distinctly remember Harry's aunt saying she had been jealous of her sister going to Hogwart's. It makes sense, in a fucked up way, that she keep all knowledge of wizardry away from Harry.

* not a hardcore fan.

Yeah, she was jealous and then turned it into "Lily was a freak, we are normal, thank you very much!" Which is why they got so mad about anything weird happening around Harry.

[anonymouseliza]

Jun 5, 2015 17:09:59 GMT -5 @pineappleoranges said:

Jun 5, 2015 17:08:20 GMT -5 housecarder said:

But it wasn't until he got the memory from Slughorn that he knew about all the horcruxes, so I'm sure even if he had suspicions he didn't know Harry was a horcrux.

No, He had an idea that Voldemort made Horcrux. I believe the memory was the confirmation of where he learned the information.

The memory is where he learned that there might be more than one. He suspected (and found) at least one horcrux, but the memory (which specifically mentions 7) is when he knew for certain what he was looking for. 

He might have suspected it in fifth year given the unusual connection, but he seemed to suspect no more than a mental link to Voldemort - hence having Snape teach him occlumency and himself staying away from Harry and not looking at him (because he feared Voldemort could see through Harry's eyes and might have the same powers through Harry- Legilimens use eye contact to practice legilimancy). He wouldn't have had to worry if it were merely a horcrux.

He pieced the accidental horcrux theory together sometime in book 6, per Snape's memories. Though, tbh, it was always a weak thread but not quite as weak as the entire Elder Wand nonsense (I say with love).

[JukEboXtheTanK]

Did someone call my name?

[anonymouseliza]

Jun 5, 2015 16:59:09 GMT -5 joy said:

And I just read a very interesting piece on cracked that explains how perhaps Hogwarts was all in Harry's head as a way to escape from the abuse he was dealing with at home.

Well fuck.

JKR has said it's not true.  It's a well considered theory, but it's not real.

I ignore.

[♪♫choppinbroccoli♫♪]

Jun 5, 2015 17:36:13 GMT -5 JukEboXtheTanK said:

Did someone call my name?

*poof* per first poof

OMFG, SheilaTheTank?

[♪♫choppinbroccoli♫♪]

I love everything.

[SheilaTheTank]

Jun 5, 2015 17:36:13 GMT -5 JukEboXtheTanK said:

Did someone call my name?

Go back to chat limbo! Ladies talking now. 

[♪♫choppinbroccoli♫♪]

Jun 5, 2015 17:42:20 GMT -5 SheilaTheTank said:

Jun 5, 2015 17:36:13 GMT -5 JukEboXtheTanK said:

Did someone call my name?

Go back to chat limbo! Ladies talking now. 

LOL, best part of my day so far. Thanks, Tanks.

[anonymouseliza]

See, this is not helpful, I'm sure, but some of this stuff is where I just throw up my hands and say, "It's a kids series. It starts out being aimed at pre-teens by a first-time author. Meh."

Was Harry abused? Well, obviously he was. They talk about Dudley beating him up - at least - him being thrown and locked in the cupboard for extended periods of time and treating him like a slave. Petunia aims a frying pan at his head and he ducks and it's treated as a common place occurrence.

Why didn't anyone do anything? Because it was backstory that was irrelevant. I know. I know. Not helpful to the discussion. But that's the truth. Or if you want to immerse in the world, because Dumbledore - rightly or wrongly - placed his physical safety above any other consideration of well-being for a child. Dumbledore admits through the series that he makes mistakes and that he sees things through an old man's perspective. This child - for reasons he does not yet know - defeated Voldemort, if even only temporarily - and needs to be protected, at least until they know for sure Voldemort is gone and/or what happened. Ms. Figg's main purpose was safety. Given the care Petunia and Vernon had for appearances, I would be willing to bet that there was very little visible to the outside world in terms of neglect or bruises.

Should teachers have known? In the real world, probably. In the book world, no, that would have been entirely inconvenient. Part of the wonder of Harry is that he is still sweet and loving by nature, despite his horrible upbringing. That he is the opposite of Voldemort by choice - he could be as bitter and resentful and Muggle-hating as Tom Riddle. He could go on to do hideous things to Muggles . . . except that he chooses Gryffindor and bravery and loyalty and courage over ambition and power. You know, as heros in stories do. He's a flawed hero, he's a moody teenager, he has trust issues, etc etc. But he's still drawn to be the opposite of Voldemort, and hence the one who has to defeat him, with love (and the happenstance of a super lucky and very tenuous bit of trumped up wandlore).

[anonymouseliza]

Oh, and even knowing Harry was a horcrux, Dumbledore didn't know for certain that Harry would be able to return from the dead. He *guessed* so, based on the blood protection link, but he didn't know. He only knew for certain that Harry's willing sacrifice would act as Lily's had and protect everyone, while destroying the final horcrux and rendering Voldemort mortal and defeatable.

Fortunately for us all, Christ . . . I mean, Harry, was able to return from the dead and live among us.

[SheilaTheTank]

Jun 5, 2015 17:40:31 GMT -5 ♪♫choppinbroccoli♫♪ said:

Jun 5, 2015 17:36:13 GMT -5 JukEboXtheTanK said:

Did someone call my name?

*poof* per first poof

OMFG, SheilaTheTank?

I jokingly said "Hey the made a thread about you, you should say hi." I didn't think he would actually do it. 

#iamnew

[housecarder]

Jun 5, 2015 17:32:10 GMT -5 @pineappleoranges said:

Jun 5, 2015 17:22:35 GMT -5 housecarder said:

But they did do something about him living in a cupboard and having bars on his windows. It was them mentioning that he lived in the cupboard that he got a room. And when he didn't respond to their letters the Weasleys went and got him. -- And he kept going back. Why not send an adult inside the house once in awhile?
I think that you are right that he always felt he had something to prove with the sorting hat wanting to put him in slytherin, and knowing that he was idolized in this new world. But he constantly broke rules and was reckless in how he went about doing it. I wouldn't consider that an overly good kid, just one with a hero complex.

He was a child who didn't have sufficient boundaries. And the adults gave him no reason to trust them:
McGonagall only had to say : The Stone is being monitored, don't worry about it Harry.
or:
I'm sorry Umbridge is abusing you and here's a pain potion don't tell him "keep your head down!"

Was he going to rely on Hagrid? He wasn't smart enough to realize fire burns wood when he brought a dragon in a wood hut?

Was he going to trust Binns? He was too busy being a ghost and talking about the Goblin rebellions

Snape: Too busy a dickwad for half the series and took everyone until the end to realize me may have been a good guy.

The Minister had already decided that he was going to do anything possible ignore Voldemort's return

and....

Having past teachers try to kill you is not conducive to trust.

But I believe McGonagall did say that they had it taken care of. (Btw how is a series of trials better than just keeping the thing under guard 24/7?)
And if an 11 year old who has never had any experience with magic before came to me and was like "hey I know you've been preparing for Voldemort's return for years but I think Snape's a traitor and trying to steal this magic relic I'm not supposed to know about" I'd brush him off too.
Everyone knew Umbridge was a bitch but they couldn't kick her out because she had the ministry behind her.
Harry had reliable adults in his life though: the Weasleys, Lupin, Sirius, the Order. And again, I think the adults did what normal adults do, they make decisions for the children in their lives. I don't think many adults would consult a 16 year old or younger on matters of war.

[anonymouseliza]

And if I sound critical at times (let's not get me started on Fred's death, ok? fair warning), it doesn't mean I don't love these books immensely.

[SheilaTheTank]

Can we talk about how HP's father is a complete and total asshole?

[rablissful]

Jun 5, 2015 17:44:15 GMT -5 anonymouseliza said:

See, this is not helpful, I'm sure, but some of this stuff is where I just throw up my hands and say, "It's a kids series. It starts out being aimed at pre-teens by a first-time author. Meh."

Was Harry abused? Well, obviously he was. They talk about Dudley beating him up - at least - him being thrown and locked in the cupboard for extended periods of time and treating him like a slave. Petunia aims a frying pan at his head and he ducks and it's treated as a common place occurrence.

Why didn't anyone do anything? Because it was backstory that was irrelevant. I know. I know. Not helpful to the discussion. But that's the truth. Or if you want to immerse in the world, because Dumbledore - rightly or wrongly - placed his physical safety above any other consideration of well-being for a child. Dumbledore admits through the series that he makes mistakes and that he sees things through an old man's perspective. This child - for reasons he does not yet know - defeated Voldemort, if even only temporarily - and needs to be protected, at least until they know for sure Voldemort is gone and/or what happened. Ms. Figg's main purpose was safety. Given the care Petunia and Vernon had for appearances, I would be willing to bet that there was very little visible to the outside world in terms of neglect or bruises.

Should teachers have known? In the real world, probably. In the book world, no, that would have been entirely inconvenient. Part of the wonder of Harry is that he is still sweet and loving by nature, despite his horrible upbringing. That he is the opposite of Voldemort by choice - he could be as bitter and resentful and Muggle-hating as Tom Riddle. He could go on to do hideous things to Muggles . . . except that he chooses Gryffindor and bravery and loyalty and courage over ambition and power. You know, as heros in stories do. He's a flawed hero, he's a moody teenager, he has trust issues, etc etc. But he's still drawn to be the opposite of Voldemort, and hence the one who has to defeat him, with love (and the happenstance of a super lucky and very tenuous bit of trumped up wandlore).

[anonymouseliza]

Jun 5, 2015 17:48:34 GMT -5 housecarder said:

Jun 5, 2015 17:32:10 GMT -5 @pineappleoranges said:

He was a child who didn't have sufficient boundaries. And the adults gave him no reason to trust them:
McGonagall only had to say : The Stone is being monitored, don't worry about it Harry.
or:
I'm sorry Umbridge is abusing you and here's a pain potion don't tell him "keep your head down!"

Was he going to rely on Hagrid? He wasn't smart enough to realize fire burns wood when he brought a dragon in a wood hut?

Was he going to trust Binns? He was too busy being a ghost and talking about the Goblin rebellions

Snape: Too busy a dickwad for half the series and took everyone until the end to realize me may have been a good guy.

The Minister had already decided that he was going to do anything possible ignore Voldemort's return

and....

Having past teachers try to kill you is not conducive to trust.

But I believe McGonagall did say that they had it taken care of. (Btw how is a series of trials better than just keeping the thing under guard 24/7?)
And if an 11 year old who has never had any experience with magic before came to me and was like "hey I know you've been preparing for Voldemort's return for years but I think Snape's a traitor and trying to steal this magic relic I'm not supposed to know about" I'd brush him off too.
Everyone knew Umbridge was a bitch but they couldn't kick her out because she had the ministry behind her.
Harry had reliable adults in his life though: the Weasleys, Lupin, Sirius, the Order. And again, I think the adults did what normal adults do, they make decisions for the children in their lives. I don't think many adults would consult a 16 year old or younger on matters of war.

No one except certain people were going to get the stone from the mirror.  The tests/trials/traps were gotten through by three FIRST YEAR STUDENTS.  They were only intended to slow people down until Dumbledore arrived to deal with the thief.

Funny note on that - he's detained in London, because we haven't yet been introduced to the floo network or apparition.  It's funny to re-read some of the earlier books with later information.  Dumbledore could have been back quite quickly, but in the book, he just gets a bad feeling.

I mean . . . you have to keep in mind at some point that it is YA and on a developmental arc.  Otherwise, Philospher's Stone will eat away at your brain.

[anonymouseliza]

See, I was already in college when they started coming out over here. I read all the books two months before book 7 came out.

Totally the way to do it - all the fun anticipation, all the fun of the theories and speculating on book 7, none of the agonizing wait. But since I was 27, I definitely had a different perspective. Honestly I read book 1 in the pool on vacation.

[anonymouseliza]

Jun 5, 2015 17:52:56 GMT -5 @pineappleoranges said:

Jun 5, 2015 17:51:28 GMT -5 SheilaTheTank said:

Can we talk about how HP's father is a complete and total asshole?

And don't get me started on Lily!

Wait, what's wrong with Lily?

I'd rather discuss whether you find Snape's love of Lily something that is sweet, to be admired and envied or obsessive and self-centered. That's always a good debate.

[housecarder]

Fun fact. I was in England the week before the 7th book came out there for a college trip. I was so mad that we left the day before the release and I had to wait another week or so before it was released in the U.S.

[JukEboXtheTanK]

I read the first and second book. They were good but couldn't get into it.

[housecarder]

Jun 5, 2015 18:03:04 GMT -5 anonymouseliza said:

Jun 5, 2015 17:52:56 GMT -5 @pineappleoranges said:

And don't get me started on Lily!

Wait, what's wrong with Lily?

I'd rather discuss whether you find Snape's love of Lily something that is sweet, to be admired and envied or obsessive and self-centered. That's always a good debate.

I think it became obsessive and self centered but Snape also was never really shown love by anyone before. I think in the end he felt extremely guilty and I will never not bawl my eyes out in his memory scene in the final movie.

[anonymouseliza]

Jun 5, 2015 18:05:58 GMT -5 JukEboXtheTanK said:

I read the first and second book. They were good but couldn't get into it.

They are the worst of the series.  It really starts to mature, the subject matter gets darker, the kids get older, and JKR's writing gets more nuanced and taut starting in book 3.

[anonymouseliza]

Jun 5, 2015 18:03:23 GMT -5 housecarder said:

Fun fact. I was in England the week before the 7th book came out there for a college trip. I was so mad that we left the day before the release and I had to wait another week or so before it was released in the U.S.

I might have died.

The Phelps twins (who played the Weasley) twins have a funny story about reading book 7. They were doing promo tours in Japan for the fifth movie and Warner Bros got them copies of the book so they could read it on the trip. They were on the bullet train and James talks about how he's frantically reading the book and he's just read about Fred's death when the conductor comes round to check their tickets and he's freaking out and he's like, "Could you give me a second? I just died!"

And Oliver hadn't yet had a chance to read it (having slept on the train, I think) and he gets a text from a mate before he's opened the book saying, "JKR really doesn't like you two does she? You lose an ear and James dies!"

Heh.

[squeakyduck]

Jun 5, 2015 16:48:21 GMT -5 @pineappleoranges said:

The we have Dumbledore?

You left a toddler (who was clearly walking since he was given a learners broom) on the doorsteps in England in November?
Even though we later learn of warming charms why didn't he just knock on the door and let Petunia know in person her sister had died?
No matter, the relationship Petunia and Lily had, finding your dead sisters son on your doorstep when you go for the morning milk is a hard pill to swallow?

This one I'm willing to let pass in the interest of storytelling. Sometimes you just have to let art flow.