Hi ladies...could use some advice

[msugirl]

Hi ladies,
I typically post on CAR and D15, but could really use some of your experience and wisdom tonight. I apologize in advance that this is going to be super long. A little background, MH is Catholic with a very religious family (they basically helped build the church in his hometown), but he doesn't really attend church unless his parents force him to go or for holidays (Christmas, Easter, etc). I'm Jewish and spent my childhood in the atheist Soviet Union where religion was forbidden, so when we moved to the United States, it became a big part of my identity. I went to Hebrew school, Jewish camps, etc. My family however, is not at all religious aside from my two grandma's who are no longer with us.
MH and I got married when we were very young, and had both a priest and a rabbi officiate our wedding. We had decided then that we wanted to raise our children with exposure to both cultures and religions and have them decide later on. I know this probably sounds really naiive and overly-optimistic now, but we thought if I went to church with him and he went to synagogue with me, it would make the child not feel as if they're choosing between mom and dad, but really more based on their own beliefs and we'd both support whatever they chose. 
Fast forward 9 years...through 6 years of TTC and three MCs, we are 25 weeks pregnant with out baby boy. Having a bris (Jewish circumcision ceremony) was something we both had agreed upon because it was a non-negotiable for me. Well, tonight, MH brought up baptizing the child too, and said it's important to him to do that since we're having a bris. Part of me actually feels like his family may be pushing him a little on this, but they're pretty convincing.
Anyways, so I know I'm probably wrong for being so selfish, but I just feel so wrong about a baptism that tells our son he's born with sin and is dammed since it goes against my religion. Also, I know during baptism, you have to promise to raise your child Catholic, and while he will be raised Catholic, it almost feels deceptive since he'll also be raised Jewish.
Anyone have experience with this or thoughts on how to possibly make the baptism more interfaith-friendly? I told H that we need to schedule a meeting with the priest, but he thinks we need to have an idea of what we actually want first.

Thank you ladies in advance for your help! Treats if you've made it this far!

[pittpurple]

Congratulations on your pregnancy!

I am Jewish (raised very religiously but not practicing) and DH is an atheist Catholic. We had lots and lots of conversations about this but as the ultimate decision was that we'd have Jewish children raised in a mixed-religion household, we decided early on that if we had a boy he would have a bris, but none of our children would be baptised. That's really difficult for his mom and his grandparents to deal with but we had to make a simple decision.

I 'thought' (really preliminary information when we were just talking through options) that part of the baptism ceremony is promising to raise the child Catholic. Will a priest agree to baptise a mixed religion child? I know DH wasn't able to be confirmed as his father is an atheist and wouldn't participate in the family activities.

Unfortunately this is one of the issues that doesn't have a simple answer as each decision conflicts with the other. Do you have a friendly rabbi and priest? Could you maybe develop a personal ceremony that is a bris AND baptism? I don't think it's really fair to add Jewish components to a baptism if you don't add Catholic components to a bris so maybe putting something together that includes everything might work? Really depends on your synagogue and churches though, my family are Conservative Jews and don't compromise on these sorts of things at all so might not even be possible.

[mrsmuq]

I will say that every church is different. The parish we technically belong to seems like a throwbback to the 1600s in their doctrine and protocols, but the RC church 2 miles away is much more laid back and informal.

I think if you intend to raise your child in both faiths that, yes, a baptism is obligatory. A baptism is the first step towards meeting all the sacraments in the church (IME, most churches baptize members as infants, not later in life, except for Baptists).

[bonzo2012]

I think if you have a rabbi and a priest who have dealt with the interfaith situation before, they might be able to help you figure out something that will meet both of your desires.

I will say though, this is not the first time where you will be faced with opposing religious rituals. What happens when they reach the age of 1st Communion? Bar Mitzvah? Confirmation in both Judaism and Catholisism? If you set your son up to receive sacraments in the Catholic Church, then he would have to go through conversion if he wanted a Bar Mitzvah. I can appreciate that you're hoping to expose your kid to both faiths and heritages, but he can't be a fully participating member of two religions.

I know it's a lot to talk about with YH -- I'm Jewish and MH is agnostic/secular and we had a lot of things to figure out before even getting married. I can only imagine it being even more complicated since YH is tied to the church.

Good luck as you figure this out! Interfaith families all look very different but we're here to support you as you figure out what it means for you.

[toratoratori]

Congrats on your pregnancy, msugirl, and welcome to the I/I board!

I think it would be wise to talk to both officiants and see what options they can provide you to make both you and your husband more comfortable. I don't think you have to have an idea of what you want before you go in - it's totally fair to ask what a service normally entails, and ask to make tweaks based on what about that makes you or your husband uncomfortable. Additionally, you have a bit of extra time for the baptism - a bris needs to be done at 8 days, but I've seen people do baptisms as late as a year old. (I assume this is kosher for Catholic law, but I could be wrong.) That will give you more time to do some research and find a format that would make you more comfortable.

Also, if you haven't already seen it, I highly recommend the Sex and the City episode where Miranda and Steve get Brady baptized

[msugirl]

Thanks ladies!
I think sitting down with a priest and a rabbi is something we definitely need to do. Also, I've been talking a lot to my husband about raising him Jewish but with exposure to Catholicism through his family. My reasoning being that he'll be exposed to Catholicism no matter what since his family is so religious, but I'm the only practicing Jew in my family, so if I don't make an effort to raise him Jewish, it'll be lost completely. Funny enough, that's the exact same reason that MH isn't as comfortable with that plan. He thinks that if we raise the baby Catholic, or both, he'll have this huge support network, whereas if we try to raise him Jewish, I'll be the only one he has, and he won't be able to ask him grandparents or cousins about religion.
Anyways, I guess we've still got a long way to go with this discussion.
I really appreciate your advice and support!

[pittpurple]

It's a really tough situation. We live in Scotland where there are almost no Jews and it's really difficult to expose my daughter to Jewish culture on my own. So I do understand wanting a community to support you in whichever direction you go. Good luck!

[missjenniebean]

Congratulations on your pregnancy! I wish I could offer advice but I agree with previous posters about sitting together with both and discussing amongst them and yourselves.

[toratoratori]

Where do you live, msugirl? Is there a local Jewish community you could get involved in? A Jewish daycare you could send LO to?

[bonzo2012]

Aug 27, 2015 7:17:56 GMT -5 toratoratori said:

Where do you live, msugirl? Is there a local Jewish community you could get involved in? A Jewish daycare you could send LO to?

This is a good idea. In my experience most Jewish communities are very welcoming, and there are many older ladies willing to "adopt" young families!

Also when your LO is born, look into the PJ Library. It's a free book service that will send you age appropriate books on Jewish topics, I think monthly, from when LO is about 6 months to somewhere around 5 or 7 years old. I think exact age depends on the area, and what local sponsors are funding.

[toratoratori]

Aug 27, 2015 10:05:29 GMT -5 bonzo2012 said:

Aug 27, 2015 7:17:56 GMT -5 toratoratori said:

Where do you live, msugirl? Is there a local Jewish community you could get involved in? A Jewish daycare you could send LO to?

This is a good idea. In my experience most Jewish communities are very welcoming, and there are many older ladies willing to "adopt" young families!

Also when your LO is born, look into the PJ Library. It's a free book service that will send you age appropriate books on Jewish topics, I think monthly, from when LO is about 6 months to somewhere around 5 or 7 years old. I think exact age depends on the area, and what local sponsors are funding.

We're PJ Library members! I love it Cili's latest book is called "Laila Tov" and I read it to her every night before bed.

[sonpetitlapin]

msugirl, congrats on your little boy!!

Sorry I am late to the game. Here are my thoughts and I may be off as I am not in a Interfaith relationship but have struggled with the exposure of my children to organized religion in relation to my deep spirituality.

Questions: Is the intent of raising your child in both religions is to expose your child to both and allow him to make his own decision when he is older on where he chooses to identify?

That is what I got majorly from your post as you both are not "devote" but exposed Catholic/Jewish couple. You are seeking exposure for your child to make an informed decision when he is old enough to decide on his own. If this is the case, personally then I would shy away from ANY ceremony that would commit my child one way or the other to a certain faith before he/she is able to make that choice on their own. I don't know about bris other than the circumcision part. But the baptism, aside from washing away original sin in the Catholic Faith if that still believed, is really about the Baptismal Convenient. The commitment to raise your child in the way of Jesus Christ. Well, that way is a contradictory to the Jewish Faith. Just like I am sure there are ceremonies in the Jewish Faith that are contradictory to Christianity.

If the case is about exposure for later personal decision, then going through a ceremony for a personal reasons is not beneficial to the child. They are decisions the child should make when they are old enough to make their informed decision on their own.

[msugirl]

Thank you ladies for all the great advice.

toratoratori, we live in the midwest, and there is a pretty large Jewish community around us. I just haven't become a member of a synagogue, so haven't felt as closely connected to it. One of the day cares we're looking at though is actually through the synagogue near our home.

bonzo2012, I had no idea there were free books for children! I'll definitely have to look into this!

[bonzo2012]

I think sonpetitlapin brings up some good things to consider. If the goal is for your LO to be given the freedom to choose, then going through with a ceremony that specifically promises to raise him in one faith or the other doesn't fit with that goal.


The PJ Library doesn't seem to be heavily advertised, but its a great program! I absolutely plan to sign up my future LO when I have one!

[pittpurple]

PJ Library is fantastic. I live overseas but my mom registered us and brings the books out when we see her, there are some firm favourites and it's great to have books for each holiday.

sonpetitlapin, you definitely said it better but I do agree. If you don't want to choose for your child now, you really can't have a ceremony that makes him belong to a particular faith. It's so tricky for sure.

[toratoratori]

Okay. I have tried to write this post three times, and my computer keeps deleting it, which probably is a sign that I shouldn't post it, but I'm going to do it anyway.

This is probably (definitely) a UO, but I truly believe that children with a Jewish heritage should be raised Jewish. Our faith is one of the few (possibly only? I'm not sure) out there that is also an ethnicity, and there are so few of us now (for obvious historical reasons), and I am genuinely worried that this culture is going to die out unless we raise the next generation to understand the importance of keeping it alive.

I'm obviously all for intermarrying, but raising my kids Jewish - and ONLY Jewish - was and is a non-negotiable in my relationship with my husband.

[pittpurple]

toratoratori, I am really curious about this one. My mom says this a lot - that 'Jewish' is an ethnicity and I just find it really confusing. My daughter is ethnically half Jewish so what does that mean? What about adopted Jews and converted Jews and people who are 1/4 Jewish biologically but raised as Jews? I can't see what my daughter is either 'more' Jewish than someone with 1 Jewish grandparent who goes to synagogue every week or 'less' Jewish than someone who has 2 Jewish parents.

It was never a question in my household either, we had a lot of difficult conversations really early on in our relationship (we started dating at 19) and actually it came down to making a deal - it was important to him that I change my name when we got married (never occurred to me that I would!) and it was important to me that our children be Jewish. So we both compromised and ended up here. The way I was raised it was just impossible for me to see a way to raise a child as belonging simultaneously to two religions so I do find it really interesting to see how people are managing all these issues with that goal in mind.

[toratoratori]

Aug 31, 2015 15:10:39 GMT -5 pittpurple said:

toratoratori, I am really curious about this one. My mom says this a lot - that 'Jewish' is an ethnicity and I just find it really confusing. My daughter is ethnically half Jewish so what does that mean? What about adopted Jews and converted Jews and people who are 1/4 Jewish biologically but raised as Jews? I can't see what my daughter is either 'more' Jewish than someone with 1 Jewish grandparent who goes to synagogue every week or 'less' Jewish than someone who has 2 Jewish parents.

I'm not comfortable saying that someone is "more" or "less" Jewish than anyone else, and that's something I worry about all the time with C. I don't want her to identify as "half Jewish," even though that's technically what she is, the same way she's an eighth Polish and three-eighths Russian and whatever fractions of whatever my husband has decided his heritage is on that given day. (Somehow, there's an extra half in there. Math is hard.)

Adopted and converted Jews, in a majority of cases, are not going to be ethnically Jewish, but they're still religiously and culturally Jewish. And if they have kids with someone who is ethnically Jewish, whether or not that person is a practicing Jew, those kids are still going to be ethnically Jewish, too. Those are the kids I want to see raised in the faith, because I want them to have an understanding of our shared history and how it shapes them as a person.

I'm not the boss of anyone, and I can only guarantee this kind of childhood for my own kids, but that guarantee is important to me. This is going to sound totally trite, but I think about how many members of this community we lost during WWII all the time, and I feel like I owe it to their memories to raise my kids as strong Jews in this world that didn't (and often still doesn't) want us.

[msugirl]

toratoratori, I totally agree with your reasoning. Unfortunately, so does my H...his reasoning for raising our LO with exposure to both being "well, since his mother is Jewish, that means he's ethnically Jewish, even if we raise him Catholic"...not sure I agree with this. I wish it was something H and I really thought out more when we were dating...I doubt it would have changed our decision to marry each other, but at least we'd have a more realistic plan than "oh, we'll expose him to both religions".
I do understand completely the feeling of wanting to preserve the religion / heritage. Both sets of my grandparents and my aunt were in the holocaust, and I was raised in a very anti-Semitic Soviet state (still to this day very anti-Semitic). I wish we could just raise our LO Jewish and he'd have tons of exposure to Catholicism regardless (not just H's family, but just general population has way more exposure to Christianity). However, not sure H is to that point yet.

[toratoratori]

Aug 31, 2015 20:01:58 GMT -5 msugirl said:

toratoratori, I totally agree with your reasoning. Unfortunately, so does my H...his reasoning for raising our LO with exposure to both being "well, since his mother is Jewish, that means he's ethnically Jewish, even if we raise him Catholic"...not sure I agree with this. I wish it was something H and I really thought out more when we were dating...I doubt it would have changed our decision to marry each other, but at least we'd have a more realistic plan than "oh, we'll expose him to both religions". 

If it's any consolation, my husband and I indisputably agreed to raise our kids Jewish, and he's STILL on my case about "becoming more religious" since we got married and "moving the goal posts" after C was born. Uhhh, no dude. Raising a child Jewish means being intentional about attending services and being a part of the community. I have not become "more religious" and this is, in fact, what you agreed to - I didn't change the terms. Sorry you didn't bother to fully research and understand the fine print before signing the contract.

[anakah]

Sept 1, 2015 8:11:14 GMT -5 toratoratori said:

Aug 31, 2015 20:01:58 GMT -5 msugirl said:

toratoratori, I totally agree with your reasoning. Unfortunately, so does my H...his reasoning for raising our LO with exposure to both being "well, since his mother is Jewish, that means he's ethnically Jewish, even if we raise him Catholic"...not sure I agree with this. I wish it was something H and I really thought out more when we were dating...I doubt it would have changed our decision to marry each other, but at least we'd have a more realistic plan than "oh, we'll expose him to both religions". 

If it's any consolation, my husband and I indisputably agreed to raise our kids Jewish, and he's STILL on my case about "becoming more religious" since we got married and "moving the goal posts" after C was born. Uhhh, no dude. Raising a child Jewish means being intentional about attending services and being a part of the community. I have not become "more religious" and this is, in fact, what you agreed to - I didn't change the terms. Sorry you didn't bother to fully research and understand the fine print before signing the contract.

DH was adamant about raising our kids Jewish from the begninning, which I have no problems with.  I do have a problem with him not understanding the bolded though. As a convert to Judiasm, I don't really know how to raise our kids in the faith and he is not much help. It is so frustrating getting him on board even though it's what he wanted.

[toratoratori]

Sept 1, 2015 15:10:41 GMT -5 anakah said:

Sept 1, 2015 8:11:14 GMT -5 toratoratori said:

If it's any consolation, my husband and I indisputably agreed to raise our kids Jewish, and he's STILL on my case about "becoming more religious" since we got married and "moving the goal posts" after C was born. Uhhh, no dude. Raising a child Jewish means being intentional about attending services and being a part of the community. I have not become "more religious" and this is, in fact, what you agreed to - I didn't change the terms. Sorry you didn't bother to fully research and understand the fine print before signing the contract.

DH was adamant about raising our kids Jewish from the begninning, which I have no problems with.  I do have a problem with him not understanding the bolded though. As a convert to Judiasm, I don't really know how to raise our kids in the faith and he is not much help. It is so frustrating getting him on board even though it's what he wanted.

That's infuriating! I'm sorry he's not supporting you in this. At least you have us though, right?

[bonzo2012]

Sept 1, 2015 15:10:41 GMT -5 anakah said:

Sept 1, 2015 8:11:14 GMT -5 toratoratori said:

If it's any consolation, my husband and I indisputably agreed to raise our kids Jewish, and he's STILL on my case about "becoming more religious" since we got married and "moving the goal posts" after C was born. Uhhh, no dude. Raising a child Jewish means being intentional about attending services and being a part of the community. I have not become "more religious" and this is, in fact, what you agreed to - I didn't change the terms. Sorry you didn't bother to fully research and understand the fine print before signing the contract.

DH was adamant about raising our kids Jewish from the begninning, which I have no problems with.  I do have a problem with him not understanding the bolded though. As a convert to Judiasm, I don't really know how to raise our kids in the faith and he is not much help. It is so frustrating getting him on board even though it's what he wanted.

If it's any consolation, my parents were similar. My mom was used to going to church every Sunday with her mom, so easily transitioned into going to services on Friday nights. But my dad didn't grow up very "religious", so it was really my mom who did a lot of making sure we did our Hebrew school homework, etc even though she didnt know it all! And after my younger sister had her Bat Mitzvah and going to services regularly was no longer a requirement, he stopped going except for holidays, Yartzheits, etc. With my dad you can tell he's Jewish when he needs it, but my mom is more consistent with the day to day stuff.

[crinita]

msugirl, sorry to chime in so late but I just saw this! We are in a similar situation, except DH is Jewish (reform) and I come from a liberal protestant Christian background (UCC). Before we got married we discussed how we would raise any potential children and decided mutually that they would be raised in the Jewish faith but that they would be exposed to Christianity (i.e., allowed to participate in holidays with my family). I can say that our reasoning behind this kind of mirrors toratoratori 's.

Our first was a girl, so we didn't have to worry about a bris. We had a little trouble with our first attempt at a naming ceremony for her (we don't have a reform temple near us geographically so we tried to work with a Conservative temple but it fell through). However at around the age of one we had a small ceremony to give her her Hebrew name at DH's parents' reform congregation. With our D15 son, we are planning a small bris in our Doctor's office. I told DH he is completely in charge of all the details!

We also love love love PJ Library and I can't recommend it enough.

I guess my gut feeling is that while I find the intention to bring a child up in both faiths noble, especially with a more rigid faith like Catholicism and/or Conservative Judaism I wonder if like previous posters mentioned, the requirements each faith make them mutually exclusive. Even with liberal protestant Christianity and reform Judaism we personally decided it would be too hard. Of course, our kids are free to choose their own faith when they are old enough to, but until that point we just decided to raise them as Jewish.

Of course, it is hard with family, especially mine. I have had to repeatedly explain to my mother why we are not teaching/raising the kids with Christianity. It is a hard sell, but since I really believe in our decision I stick to it.

[msugirl]

crinita, thank you so much for the response!
We actually met with a rabbi this weekend and he also told us that our two options are either to do a "light touch" approach with minimal exposure to both religions, or to pick one as the "main" religion, but still be able to celebrate the other parents' major holidays with the family.
He said anything beyond that would be overwhelming and confusing for the child.
Since you chose to raise your kids in YH's religion, can I ask what factors you took into consideration doing that and what made you 'okay' with it? H and I are both having a really hard time conceding...

[crinita]

msugirl, I guess it is hard to summarize, but the most important parts of my faith to me were the values (like kindness and charity) and the community, and those things are common to both faiths. I want our kids to have a good foundation and to be kind and good people. Jesus or no Jesus isn't the most important thing to me. Also, Judaism as a culture is so small and has faced so many threats to its existence, so we both felt that it was right to bring the kids up with that culture and religion. So I guess that probably oversimplifies it, but that is it in a nutshell. The hardest part has actually been not between DH and myself, but when grandparents are involved. Hope it helps, and wishing you both the best in finding what will work for you!

[pittpurple]

msugirl, it's really hard one, but for us, it was more important to me than it was to DH so I 'won'.

Also, I felt like our child(ren) would get plenty of exposure to Christianity in day-to-day life - they celebrate Christmas at school and all the stores have Easter candy and all that cultural stuff would still be a part of her life. Whereas if she's going to have exposure to Judaism, that can only come from us really as there are so few Jews here. So I think it would be easier to choose to find out more information about Christianity than to look for information about Judaism if that makes sense.

[msugirl]

Oct 1, 2015 5:43:00 GMT -5 pittpurple said:

msugirl, it's really hard one, but for us, it was more important to me than it was to DH so I 'won'.

Also, I felt like our child(ren) would get plenty of exposure to Christianity in day-to-day life - they celebrate Christmas at school and all the stores have Easter candy and all that cultural stuff would still be a part of her life. Whereas if she's going to have exposure to Judaism, that can only come from us really as there are so few Jews here. So I think it would be easier to choose to find out more information about Christianity than to look for information about Judaism if that makes sense.

See, I brought this up to H and that was actually one of his concerns in raising him Jewish. Since I'm really the only practicing Jew in my family (my parents say they're Jewish but don't practice at all), he said it would be hard for our baby and he wouldn't get to really "celebrate" holidays and talk religion with all of his cousins (we have 8 nieces / nephews on MH side). I told him it would be great to still go to his family's Christmas and Easter celebrations, but he said that our child might feel like an outsider being there but not really celebrating.
I seriously hate having to make this decision...

[pittpurple]

msugirl, I get it for sure, it's much 'easier' in a lot of ways to be raised with the dominant religion, particularly if his family is bigger than yours.

Basically the issue we run into is that since it's my religion and I'm the one who pushed for this, it's become entirely my responsibility to keep up on it. If we want to light candles for holidays, that's fine, but it's not like my husband will remember to buy them or light them. He'll listen to anything I do, but he's not going to sing along or join in on anything. (Saying this in a loving way, he's a wonderful man, but an atheist Catholic isn't going to be enthusiastic about praying in Hebrew!).

So I guess what I'm saying is that if you're willing to 'fight' for a Jewish child, you will probably end up with the responsibility of creating a Jewish household, particularly if you're already arguing about it.

That said, we have a Jewish child and we celebrate Christmas (in the presents / tree way) and I don't have any conflicts about that. I draw the line at Santa, but the rest is fair game so she'll get all the fun of the holidays plus added fun of Chanukah, etc. I don't think most kids are going to sit around talking about religion when they're little, so it's not like he'll miss out on any huge philosophical debates with his cousins - they'll all run around hyped up on sugar together no matter what religion he is, y'know?

[toratoratori]

Oct 1, 2015 7:14:58 GMT -5 pittpurple said:

msugirl, I get it for sure, it's much 'easier' in a lot of ways to be raised with the dominant religion, particularly if his family is bigger than yours.

Basically the issue we run into is that since it's my religion and I'm the one who pushed for this, it's become entirely my responsibility to keep up on it. If we want to light candles for holidays, that's fine, but it's not like my husband will remember to buy them or light them. He'll listen to anything I do, but he's not going to sing along or join in on anything. (Saying this in a loving way, he's a wonderful man, but an atheist Catholic isn't going to be enthusiastic about praying in Hebrew!).

So I guess what I'm saying is that if you're willing to 'fight' for a Jewish child, you will probably end up with the responsibility of creating a Jewish household, particularly if you're already arguing about it.

That said, we have a Jewish child and we celebrate Christmas (in the presents / tree way) and I don't have any conflicts about that. I draw the line at Santa, but the rest is fair game so she'll get all the fun of the holidays plus added fun of Chanukah, etc. I don't think most kids are going to sit around talking about religion when they're little, so it's not like he'll miss out on any huge philosophical debates with his cousins - they'll all run around hyped up on sugar together no matter what religion he is, y'know?

Ditto all of this.

We actually won't be celebrating any Christian holidays in our home, but I have no qualms about her celebrating those holidays at relatives' houses.