I want to agree with it, but it really seems to open the door to men (that identify as men) being in the womens locker room. I don't know. I mean, it's not exactly a policy they can enforce. So a man goes in the womens locker room, says he identifies as a woman, and now it's okay. What's to keep some men from lying?
I want to agree with it, but it really seems to open the door to men (that identify as men) being in the womens locker room. I don't know. I mean, it's not exactly a policy they can enforce. So a man goes in the womens locker room, says he identifies as a woman, and now it's okay. What's to keep some men from lying?
But what do they get if they lie? The chance to ogle women's bodies? The chance to assault us? If a man wants to go in a women's locker room and assault someone, he will whether or not he has permission or he will find another space to do so. If the fear is being looked at by someone who find you attractive, how is that different than being a straight person sharing a locker room with a gay person? If you get naked in a semi-public space, there is always the chance somebody will check you out and there is no way to effectively police desire (nor should there be).
This definitely raises some interesting questions. I agree with both of your points @led and mugster. I feel like Planet Fitness' policy is "right" from an equal/civil rights/gender equality standpoint, but it also opens the door for potential problems and how you go about enforcing only letting people who truly identify as that gender into each locker room.
Post by spaghettioh on Mar 8, 2015 14:50:04 GMT -5
I work at a recreation centre and something like this happened last year - a person (with female anatomy) who identified as both male and female signed up for a membership and would swim in our pool with only swim trunks on and use the male changeroom. Our HR team ended up creating a policy exactly the same as Planet Fitness' and all employees had to go through Gender Identity Training. I
I want to agree with it, but it really seems to open the door to men (that identify as men) being in the womens locker room. I don't know. I mean, it's not exactly a policy they can enforce. So a man goes in the womens locker room, says he identifies as a woman, and now it's okay. What's to keep some men from lying?
I think a smaller unisex room could be the answer.
I think a smaller unisex room could be the answer.
I feel like that's worse, though.
I agree from a gender equality standpoint, it is worse. Private changing rooms could be the answer for individuals who feel uncomfortable changing in semi-public spaces for whatever reason, but nobody should be told that they must use such a room because his or her body makes others uncomfortable.
I think my questions are deeper than what this article is actually addressing.
What are the purposes of same sex changing rooms? What are the goals that we hope to achieve with them?
Is it that women feel more comfortable changing in front of other women and men in front of other men? Is that we are trying to minimize sexual assaults or oggling that happens with opposite sexes who are attracted to each other? Is it just tradition at this point? Is it something else?
I do believe its a slippery slope. However, I will side with Planet Fitness. Nobody knows who this customer being complained about spoke to before signing up. I'm sure she talked to a manager about her situation to make sure she isn't going to get in trouble. The fact that the complainer went to the desk and they knew exactly of whom she was speaking suggests to me that they knew this could happen when said member was signing up. The complainer said she was wearing a wig and a little blush. I don't know many men who will purposefully walk into a gym dressed that way just to get a peak at a woman. I agree with Planet Fitness for the revoking the complainer's membership because it wasn't her place spread this around. If she remained, saw something suspicious other than how this lady wants to dress, then she has every right to say something. She complained, Planet Fitness said they knew and wanted everyone to feel comfortable. Leave it at that or find another gym.
Post by samanthasays on Mar 9, 2015 10:44:02 GMT -5
I am totally in support of Planet Fitness's position.
I know a woman who was born a man, she wears dresses and makeup but clearly has a man's build. The last time we met up for dinner I went to the bathroom and it just hit me that she doesn't have this luxury. What if she is in a conservative establishment? Will they kick her out for using the women's restroom? But can she go in the mens room in a dress and makeup? It literally brought tears to my eyes thinking about how the things I take for granted are so difficult and painful for some. In my opinion people who associate with the sex they were born are the privileged ones in this situation, and should show a little compassion to those without our luxuries.
Also I just don't get the concern. Women can be assaulted by other women. Women can be ogled by other women. Women can be intimidated by other women. You don't need a penis to do these things.
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I agree from a gender equality standpoint, it is worse. Private changing rooms could be the answer for individuals who feel uncomfortable changing in semi-public spaces for whatever reason, but nobody should be told that they must use such a room because his or her body makes others uncomfortable.
I guess I saw it being good for this, not to be used to shun.
I believe that a person should be able to use whatever changing room that they identify as. This story comes from about 30 miles from my home so there is a lot of discussion about this locally.
As a bi woman, it makes me nervous to force any kind of separate place for a transgender to "have" to use. Having a same sex attraction, does not mean that I am going to be looking at anyone else in the locker room. I assume the same for everyone else that is in the locker room.
And from what I heard this morning, the transgender woman in question was using the room simply for her purse and coat storage when the incident happened.
Also I just don't get the concern. Women can be assaulted by other women. Women can be ogled by other women. Women can be intimidated by other women. You don't need a penis to do these things.
This is what I was trying to address with my previous post.
Comfort of having the same goods: Why is this more comfortable? Women are more comfortable with boobs over penises? Men prefer more penises over boobs? Is this actually true? It's actually kind of strange logic to me now that I've written it out. Ha.
Reduce assault/oggling: This argument makes no sense because those attracted to the same sex use same-sex locker rooms.
Tradition: This is my gut reaction to why we still have same sex changing rooms/bathrooms and it's probably time we stop and think about *why* we do it.
But, I'm also not thinking very clearly this morning so perhaps someone can expand on this.
EDIT: I'm all Planet Fitness with this one, by the way. My questions are not intended to be otherwise. I'm saying that there is no valid reason for excluding anyone from either room and perhaps we should away with them all together.
One of the only times I will ever say Good on Planet Fitness.
This. As much as they are some judgy fucks when it comes to people working out, their judgement free policy is good for something (though really this lady was harassing another member and would have been kicked out of most gyms for her actions).
Also I just don't get the concern. Women can be assaulted by other women. Women can be ogled by other women. Women can be intimidated by other women. You don't need a penis to do these things.
This is what I was trying to address with my previous post.
Comfort of having the same goods: Why is this more comfortable? Women are more comfortable with boobs over penises? Men prefer more penises over boobs? Is this actually true? It's actually kind of strange logic to me now that I've written it out. Ha.
Reduce assault/oggling: This argument makes no sense because those attracted to the same sex use same-sex locker rooms.
Tradition: This is my gut reaction to why we still have same sex changing rooms/bathrooms and it's probably time we stop and think about *why* we do it.
But, I'm also not thinking very clearly this morning so perhaps someone can expand on this.
EDIT: I'm all Planet Fitness with this one, by the way. My questions are not intended to be otherwise. I'm saying that there is no valid reason for excluding anyone from either room and perhaps we should away with them all together.
I wonder if it conservative Christian ideals. There are Christian blogs about women choosing not to wear yoga pants in public because they will tempt men that are not their husbands with their luscious loins. I can imagine they would have a shit fit over co-ed locker rooms.
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This is what I was trying to address with my previous post.
Comfort of having the same goods: Why is this more comfortable? Women are more comfortable with boobs over penises? Men prefer more penises over boobs? Is this actually true? It's actually kind of strange logic to me now that I've written it out. Ha.
Reduce assault/oggling: This argument makes no sense because those attracted to the same sex use same-sex locker rooms.
Tradition: This is my gut reaction to why we still have same sex changing rooms/bathrooms and it's probably time we stop and think about *why* we do it.
But, I'm also not thinking very clearly this morning so perhaps someone can expand on this.
EDIT: I'm all Planet Fitness with this one, by the way. My questions are not intended to be otherwise. I'm saying that there is no valid reason for excluding anyone from either room and perhaps we should away with them all together.
I wonder if it conservative Christian ideals. There are Christian blogs about women choosing not to wear yoga pants in public because they will tempt men that are not their husbands with their luscious loins. I can imagine they would have a shit fit over co-ed locker rooms.
I wonder if it conservative Christian ideals. There are Christian blogs about women choosing not to wear yoga pants in public because they will tempt men that are not their husbands with their luscious loins. I can imagine they would have a shit fit over co-ed locker rooms.
I wonder if it conservative Christian ideals. There are Christian blogs about women choosing not to wear yoga pants in public because they will tempt men that are not their husbands with their luscious loins. I can imagine they would have a shit fit over co-ed locker rooms.
Those people are extremists, not Christians.
We don't claim them.
Thanks! I knew there was a term for the people I was thinking of! That's what I meant
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Post by heatherj9603 on Mar 9, 2015 11:43:49 GMT -5
My only issue is that what prevents a non-trans man from throwing on some trans gender clothes and skeeving on the women's locker room. There has to be some standards. Like proof that you've been living that life or something. Not trying to sound discriminating, but I can see some perks taking FULL advantage of this.
eta: by pervs I meant the men trying to spy on the women. Not referring to the trans community as pervs.
Last Edit: Mar 9, 2015 11:44:38 GMT -5 by heatherj9603
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My only issue is that what prevents a non-trans man from throwing on some trans gender clothes and skeeving on the women's locker room. There has to be some standards. Like proof that you've been living that life or something. Not trying to sound discriminating, but I can see some perks taking FULL advantage of this.
eta: by pervs I meant the men trying to spy on the women. Not referring to the trans community as pervs.
But... why is it only men who can do this? A woman could easily do the reverse. And who is stopping the "pervs" among gay men or lesbian women?
This is why the argument holds no water. It's randomly discriminatory based on hypocrisy.
My only issue is that what prevents a non-trans man from throwing on some trans gender clothes and skeeving on the women's locker room. There has to be some standards. Like proof that you've been living that life or something. Not trying to sound discriminating, but I can see some perks taking FULL advantage of this.
eta: by pervs I meant the men trying to spy on the women. Not referring to the trans community as pervs.
Go read the Parenting thread on this before you even and then come back.
I believe that a person should be able to use whatever changing room that they identify as. This story comes from about 30 miles from my home so there is a lot of discussion about this locally.
As a bi woman, it makes me nervous to force any kind of separate place for a transgender to "have" to use. Having a same sex attraction, does not mean that I am going to be looking at anyone else in the locker room. I assume the same for everyone else that is in the locker room.
And from what I heard this morning, the transgender woman in question was using the room simply for her purse and coat storage when the incident happened.
ETA for spacing
I totally agree with the bolded. It seems too "separate but equal" to me. As I read the article I kept thinking "at one time that woman might have been complaining about a black woman changing with her".
July 2013 started TTC 7/20/2014=BFP; CP confirmed 8/1/2014 Dec 2014: Diagnosis = Unexplained IF 12/24/2014 Medicated TI (clomid)=BFN 1/22/2015: IUI #1 cancelled due to cyst 02/17/2015: IUI #2 cancelled due to another cyst 3/31/2015: IUI with Femera, 1 good follie, great sperm count = CP, my December Rainbow became an Angel
My only issue is that what prevents a non-trans man from throwing on some trans gender clothes and skeeving on the women's locker room. There has to be some standards. Like proof that you've been living that life or something. Not trying to sound discriminating, but I can see some perks taking FULL advantage of this.
eta: by pervs I meant the men trying to spy on the women. Not referring to the trans community as pervs.
A picture of a stick figure in a dress on the door is not going to keep pervs out. Voyeurs will find ways to victimize people regardless of rules.
And as has been mentioned, there are gays and lesbians who go to gyms who can see your equipment already.
Frankly, if someone's staring at you, report it. Otherwise who cares what junk a person has when changing for a workout.
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My only issue is that what prevents a non-trans man from throwing on some trans gender clothes and skeeving on the women's locker room. There has to be some standards. Like proof that you've been living that life or something. Not trying to sound discriminating, but I can see some perks taking FULL advantage of this.
eta: by pervs I meant the men trying to spy on the women. Not referring to the trans community as pervs.
So you want to punish one group of people based on the hypothetical actions of a completely different group of people.
I feel more comfortable changing in front of other women.
Honest question because I'm curious: Why?
I've never thought it about before beyond "This is what we do," but this post made me think harder about it. Why am I less comfortable disrobing in front of a man? If anything, a man has probably seen more boobs and vaginas than I have ever seen.
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